Run training question - Zone 2 vs. getting faster (Page 2)

Yeah, your clarification about tri vs running cleared this up.

So now we all seem to be on the same page. Or at least in the same chapter  

Yeah, this actually sucks......over beers we'd have been on the same page in about 5 minutes.

I will tell you this....when he first looked to have some poetential and he started getting coached it made me crazy.  I was sure he was swimming WAY to much and not running nearly enough.....but I came around when I saw the times start dropping off the page.  The very general principle is that swimming is very soft on the body while it grows, but at high volume creates a HUGE engine that actually (no matter what you and I have been taught and told) does have application and carry over to aerobic and anaerobic runnng capacity.......especially in kids who already can run.

I expect alot of what he does now will change to something more recognizable for us once he moves up to Olympic distances, like he will start to do this year.....but the speed is built where he trains now.

Aloso, kieep in mind.....he's not training for the triathlons we do.....if he doesn't get out of the water in the top group he's not racing.  It has great carry over for AG racing as he is almost always one of the first, or first, out of the water...but it's not near as important as it is for draft legal racing.

Maybe.  Short duration of overspeed is about building speed, but it's also about building form.  Most AG runners could certainly use some help there from what I've seen over the years.  As for the part where you quote me......again, I probably don't convey my sentiments as well with writing (especially while I['m trying ot do a couple other things)......but "much more frequency" means nearly every day, not necessarily for long durations.  You can argue it, and I get it, but he'll run a 15:00 - 15:20 5K this spring.....easily. Yes, his age is a benefit.......but like I said, I watch AG runners using these programs all the time......they also have dramatic improvements.

Folks should remember that "zones" are man-made abstractions....your body doesn't know when it exits "zone 1" and enters "zone 2".  Also, training adaptations take place across a broad spectrum of training intensities...just look at the adaptation table by Coggan (doesn't matter that he is talking about biking in the article it also applies to running).  Yes, you can optimize certain adaptations more easily in one intensity range compared to another, but don't take the notion that you have to hit a certain precise pace to elicit a specific adaptation too literally.  Again, adaptations take place across a wide spectrum.  One thing I've observed over my many years on BT is the constant pre-occupation with getting injured by injecting the slightest bit of intensity into one's workouts. I'm not talking about the people that literally got off the couch for the first time this morning.   Use common sense folks, and don't get stuck in the slow mode and never reach your true potential by living in constant fear of tweaking a muscle here and there.

I think what gets lost is how really short the high intensity workouts are.....the one I posted is less than 7 minutes of running.  I see adult onset runners doing the same workout (with speed adjusted to their level of running) witn no problems.......I would be willing to bet it's alot less stress than a tempo run of 3-5 miles.....but I'd also bet it's time better spent for speed gains and good running form.

ding ding ding. we have a winner.  My coach has been giving me bits of speedwork coupled with drills to do multiple days a week, and more than anything else I have seen my form improve dramatically. We will see about speed come race season.

That kind of intensity is no magic bullet, I think you're confusing your son (and your own) genetic aptitude for speed with the training effects. 

We have an active local triclub here that does weekly track workouts every week, almost all of which are hard intervals from 400s-1200s, every week. And most of the folks go year-round. Nobody there slacks - even the folks running 400s at 8:45/mile pace (not fast by most standards) are working pretty hard out there,and are totally gassed by the end of the intervals because they gave it their all.

YOU might look at them and think they're not running hard because of their slow pace, but they really are - they just can't go any faster.  Contrary to what you say, these intervals, while helpful, are NOT the key for these runners to go faster. Getting these runners to go faster is generally not a matter of making them do faster intervals, and almost entirely a function of getting them to ramp up their overall weekly volume -they're getting plenty of speedwork every week. Go to your local run/tri club and you'll find the same thing. 

The fact that you were able to run 15-16:xx 5ks with limited serious run experience (I don't recall you saying you were a competitive x-country runner) influences your judgment a lot. If that's your baseline for not-hardcore run training, you should be expecting your son to be seeing sub-15min 5ks if his training was really optimizing his innate performance based  upon your prior ability. 

I would say the average triathlete does very little in the way of running drills and short, fast, intervals

A good program of drills that you do consistently is absolute gold for running!

Well fcuk, LB won? I'm going home. 

My son is 16 and has been running for 2 years......yeah, I expect he will be well below sub 15.....but there is no hurry, and I'll let his coaches bring him along just as they are, with small increases and plenty of work to build speed. 

As for your "they just can't go any faster".......that's wrong.  They may not know how to, and may not have access to people who can help them, but they can go much faster for shorter bursts......and those bursts turn into longer intervals over time.  I've done it, I've watched it, and I've seen the results.  No, it's not a magic bullet, it's hard work.....but the payoff is much bigger than "run more, mostly slow".

Not disagreeing,but I'm just commenting on the regulars at my local triclub. (Iv'e been in several in Norcal and Socal, and they're similar.) The speedwork helps, but it's not a magic bullet. In fact, the speed gains to seem to top off very quickly, which is exactly what's been reported with VO2max type speed increases, which tend to increase quickly, but then plateau quickly. Whereas the low-volume aerobic work gains slowly but has less of of a ceiling. 

None of the club runners in any run club or triclub I've been in (I've been in at least 4 in 20 years) have ever gone from MOP to FOP by doing only speedwork without a significant increase in run volume. Sure, they got faster, but the guys/gals who REALLY improved were the ones who ramped up their volume a lot. Saw this a lot with runners make the dedicated jump from 10ks to serious marathon running. Give 'em a year and they'd be a whole different class of runner.  

There are no winners here.  LMAOO

marcag - you are again leaving out the other training in triathlon.  He doesn't need to do 78% easy because he is swimming so much, and soon biking so much....unlike what passes as common knowledge, there is plenty of that aerobic work that is helpful for running.  Sure, you still have to run, but much more of it, proportionally, can be at a higher intensity (building of course).  You can say it doesn't work, but then there is the 4:30 mile and 15:XX 5k on 15 miles per week, max. 

There aren't really winners and losers. Just bits of info to put together how we chose. Some seem rather insistent on seeing who really wants to find these bits by disguising them as much as possible. 

Originally posted by DannyII WOW! Lots of responses! Mostly helpful, but some not so much for this "Adult Onset Runner" - great name BTW! I don't think I'll ever be "fast", I just would like to get a bit faster than I am now. I am not trying to go sub 15 minutes for a 5k or anything. Heck, at this point, sub 25 minutes is my first goal for this year! :-) I have looked at the BarryP training plan in depth, and liked it, but wondered how to incorporate it and keep cycling, swimming, a job and a happy wife all at the same time. For now, I think 'm going to keep plugging away at my Zone 2 running, even though it drifts into Zone 3 at the end of my "long run". Which, BTW, was indeed 8 miles this morning. My first time running 8 miles ever! Once I complete the half marathon, then maybe I'll start doing some "speed work". My hope is that by increasing my volume from what it was last year (9-10 mpw) to 20-22 mpw, I'll be faster this year than last right out of the gate, so to speak. The rest would be icing on my cake.

I would bet you absolutely will be.