Distance Accuracy in Races
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2014-09-16 1:24 PM |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: Distance Accuracy in Races In addition to being an Engineer, I spent a lot of my time in high school and college working on a land surveying crew and doing drafting (like with a pencil, scale and straight edge...), so needless to say, I can be REALLY anal when it comes to measurements. With the advent of reliable GPS devices and mapping software over the last decade I have seen a lot of race distances come into question and personally found a number that were inaccurate. A well measured 5k is actually slightly over 5 kilometers per the regs utilized, and the large majority of the one's I have run are in that area. I use a combination of my GPS watch, and access I have to mapping software to verify. Anyway, I've run a couple that were WAAAY off as well. I ran a 5k that was 3.8 miles long once (out of 1,200 runners only like 5 or 6 did a sub-20, and they were studs, that should have told the RD something). I have done two triathlons so far and both were way off what they were billed as. Most recently I did an "International Distance" tri that was a 0.5 mile swim, a 17 mile bike and a 6 mile run. I was under the impression that International was the same as Olympic at 1,500m/40km/10/km. My first triathlon was a super sprint and it too was way off. I think the total run was 2 miles, the bike was 12 miles and the swim, who knows. So is this common? How often are they the standard distances and how often are they off. P.S. I totally understand the limitations of GPS when measuring distances and I really don't want to get into that debate unless you're ready to start talking about survey datums, GIS mapping, AutoCAD, benchmarks, significant figures, and all the other engineering nonsense I live on... |
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2014-09-16 1:39 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races For single sport races such as a 5k, 10k, half marathon, 40k time trial, etc...I expect race distances to be accurate as people often go for PRs or benchmark time goals. If you advertise yourself as an accurate course, it should be accurate. Now if we are talking about a 5k fun run, Race for the Cure, or something like that...then no big deal as people are generally not targeting those events as a race nor is the race director handling it as such. For triathlons, I allow much more of a leash. Maybe +-10%. I don't think PRs matter as much in triathlon as courses can vary so much. Beach starts vs. wade starts, how big is transition, swim buoy placement etc. In general though, most race directors post the course maps online. So you can map those courses out yourself if accuracy is important to you before signing up. With exception to the swim of course...which always seems to vary. But at least you can get an idea prior how seriously the RD takes course accuracy. Some are very picky about it, some really don't care much.
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2014-09-16 1:46 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races If you are anal about distances I suggest sticking to the track. I would venture a guess that almost no local triathlon courses, and damn few regional courses have the swim, bike, and run ALL correct in the advertised distances.....if you want to go "engineer" on the subject of distance in triathlon courses I will say ZERO courses are correct to the level you are talking about. Swims are notoriously long or short. |
2014-09-16 1:52 PM in reply to: 3mar |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races That is sort of what I was expecting. I am doing a tri in two weeks (Escape to Miami) and based on the map they have, it's pretty dead on (I was impressed). The thing is, that would assume they place the buoy right where it's shown on the map. What is the standard practice for buoy placement? Do they use GPS or just sort of wing it? |
2014-09-16 1:57 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races With looped bike courses safety is more important than being accurate. Standard Distances (km) 750/20/5 Sprint 1500/40/10 Oly 1.9/90/21.1 HIM 3.8/180/42.2 IM 4/120/30 ITU LD ITU allows for 10% variance. |
2014-09-16 1:57 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by 3mar That is sort of what I was expecting. I am doing a tri in two weeks (Escape to Miami) and based on the map they have, it's pretty dead on (I was impressed). The thing is, that would assume they place the buoy right where it's shown on the map. What is the standard practice for buoy placement? Do they use GPS or just sort of wing it? It really doesn't matter because it the wind comes up, or the lake level is lower or higher, or the buoy becomes untethered, or any number of other things it will be off. Just race......you'll enjoy it more. |
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2014-09-16 1:58 PM in reply to: 3mar |
New user 1351 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races lets hope they anchor the buoys well. I did a race once where the turn buoy floated away, and we just turned whenever someone in a boat started shouting at us. How's that for accurate |
2014-09-16 2:05 PM in reply to: simpsonbo |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by simpsonbo With looped bike courses safety is more important than being accurate. Standard Distances (km) 750/20/5 Sprint 1500/40/10 Oly 1.9/90/21.1 HIM 3.8/180/42.2 IM 4/120/30 ITU LD ITU allows for 10% variance. What's an ITU LD? |
2014-09-16 2:07 PM in reply to: trijamie |
128 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Even big events can be off take Saint George 70.3 ironman pro championships, the run was short last year (they cut a loop out from the previous year up a golf course and didn't add anything back) but the swim was long so it averaged out and this was the pro championships. |
2014-09-16 2:07 PM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 5345 Carlsbad, California | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races At least for USATF certified road courses; the distance measured is always the absolute shortest distance through the course. (IE. Running all of the tangents for example) Edited by WaterDog66 2014-09-16 2:08 PM |
2014-09-16 2:07 PM in reply to: 3mar |
754 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races The last Oly I did was almost two miles longer than advertised, at least according to my Garmin. However, I figure that as long as everyone in the race is racing the same course, it doesn't really matter. |
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2014-09-16 2:14 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by 3mar That is sort of what I was expecting. I am doing a tri in two weeks (Escape to Miami) and based on the map they have, it's pretty dead on (I was impressed). The thing is, that would assume they place the buoy right where it's shown on the map. What is the standard practice for buoy placement? Do they use GPS or just sort of wing it? Some races use GPS. I've seen some local races where the RD was on the beach with the guys that were ready to take the buoys out using jet skis. The RD just pointed out in the ocean and said...put one buoy over there about 150 yards out, and another one over there about the same distance out from shore. He didn't give them any sort of cross reference landmarks. Just pointed his finger and told them to estimate 150 yards. |
2014-09-16 2:16 PM in reply to: simpsonbo |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by simpsonbo With looped bike courses safety is more important than being accurate. Standard Distances (km) 750/20/5 Sprint 1500/40/10 Oly 1.9/90/21.1 HIM 3.8/180/42.2 IM 4/120/30 ITU LD ITU allows for 10% variance. Standard distances for HIM and IM are not measured in km. crazy Canadian |
2014-09-16 3:14 PM in reply to: Jason N |
701 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by Jason N Some races use GPS. Â I've seen some local races where the RD was on the beach with the guys that were ready to take the buoys out using jet skis. Â The RD just pointed out in the ocean and said...put one buoy over there about 150 yards out, and another one over there about the same distance out from shore. Â He didn't give them any sort of cross reference landmarks. Â Just pointed his finger and told them to estimate 150 yards. That was sort of my next question. Your response is what I assumed. |
2014-09-16 4:01 PM in reply to: WaterDog66 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by WaterDog66 At least for USATF certified road courses; the distance measured is always the absolute shortest distance through the course. (IE. Running all of the tangents for example) As mentioned, the USATF procedure to certify a course is based on running the shortest distance possible, i.e., runnng the tangents, and actually measuring the course with a calibrated bicycle wheel versus any electronic means. They have a procedure manual on their website that spells it out. It's a lot of work to do it properly. If I wear my GPS running watch on my bike to compare against my bike computer/wheel sensor, over a 25 mile ride they'll normally be off by around 0.25 miles. Mark
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2014-09-16 4:02 PM in reply to: jhaack39 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races how about the part where they fail to mention for nationals and worlds that they are adding like 1000m of running to and from transition to a race with only a 5k run. Don't worry about course accuracy, you can usually find out beforehand via the internet what the actual distance is, and pace accordingly. |
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2014-09-16 5:29 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by 3mar In addition to being an Engineer, I spent a lot of my time in high school and college working on a land surveying crew and doing drafting (like with a pencil, scale and straight edge...), so needless to say, I can be REALLY anal when it comes to measurements. With the advent of reliable GPS devices and mapping software over the last decade I have seen a lot of race distances come into question and personally found a number that were inaccurate. A well measured 5k is actually slightly over 5 kilometers per the regs utilized, and the large majority of the one's I have run are in that area. I use a combination of my GPS watch, and access I have to mapping software to verify. Anyway, I've run a couple that were WAAAY off as well. I ran a 5k that was 3.8 miles long once (out of 1,200 runners only like 5 or 6 did a sub-20, and they were studs, that should have told the RD something). I have done two triathlons so far and both were way off what they were billed as. Most recently I did an "International Distance" tri that was a 0.5 mile swim, a 17 mile bike and a 6 mile run. I was under the impression that International was the same as Olympic at 1,500m/40km/10/km. My first triathlon was a super sprint and it too was way off. I think the total run was 2 miles, the bike was 12 miles and the swim, who knows. So is this common? How often are they the standard distances and how often are they off. P.S. I totally understand the limitations of GPS when measuring distances and I really don't want to get into that debate unless you're ready to start talking about survey datums, GIS mapping, AutoCAD, benchmarks, significant figures, and all the other engineering nonsense I live on... As said before Triathlon races are rarely ever extremely accurate. Obviously the longer the race is, especially if one loop the more difficult to is to make the course the exact distances with regards to getting permits, good roads, etc. Right now IM Chattanooga is having problems with this. I would rather see a safe course over an accurate course. I don't have a problem with inaccurate distances at all, I just like to know beforehand. There is a local Olympic here that has the bike as 45k, but they advertise it that way, so nobody really has a problem with it. Swims are never accurate and even if they are, athletes usually don't swim straight enough to get the accurate distance Fun fact: People think short course is sprint/olympic and long course is 70.3/140.6 In actuality long course is defined by the bike distance, NOT the race distance and it needs to be 50K for it to be considered long course. This effects the race when it comes to penalties (double for long course). |
2014-09-16 5:39 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races In our local Sprint races the bike is always 16 miles. Why? Because that's the route around the reservoirs. Nothing any more scientific than that. |
2014-09-16 5:43 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by dmiller5 how about the part where they fail to mention for nationals and worlds that they are adding like 1000m of running to and from transition to a race with only a 5k run. Don't worry about course accuracy, you can usually find out beforehand via the internet what the actual distance is, and pace accordingly. Haha! So true with some of that. Learn to treat the distances as nominal values and save yourself the headaches. |
2014-09-16 5:55 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by dmiller5 how about the part where they fail to mention for nationals and worlds that they are adding like 1000m of running to and from transition to a race with only a 5k run. I know somebody who LOVES loooong transition runs. |
2014-09-16 6:04 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Its the ITU long distance world championships. Its based on the former Nice international tri in France. It is now Ironman France. |
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2014-09-17 5:21 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Extreme Veteran 933 Connecticut | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races If you care about the distances so you can investigate your splits after the fact, wear a GPS watch. Otherwise, why does it matter? The challenge is do do the course, whatever it is and under whatever conditions it is that day, at the moment you're on it. If there is a gust of wind and the swim buoy blows 20m away from you, do you stop and wait for it to blow back? What if the tide is out and you can walk more than half the course? Do you account for the extra surface distance travelled when there are hills? Train hard, race with love in your heart and it won't matter, even to an engineer. I love this sport because it's one of the few times I can let go of the engineering work I do! |
2014-09-17 8:40 AM in reply to: RedCorvette |
Regular 302 Georgetown, KY | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races The only time I ever cared is in my last sprint tri I PR'd the 5k (even better than stand-alone run races) but because I ran the shortest course possible, my garmin said it was 3.06 miles so it didn't recognize my PR!!!!! In hindsight I should have restarted the timer after I finished and ran the extra .04 but there was free beer for finishers, and I got sidetracked... lol! |
2014-09-17 8:42 AM in reply to: Bradleykd |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races Originally posted by Bradleykd The only time I ever cared is in my last sprint tri I PR'd the 5k (even better than stand-alone run races) but because I ran the shortest course possible, my garmin said it was 3.06 miles so it didn't recognize my PR!!!!! In hindsight I should have restarted the timer after I finished and ran the extra .04 but there was free beer for finishers, and I got sidetracked... lol! You realize your gps could easily be off by .04 miles ? |
2014-09-17 9:08 AM in reply to: 3mar |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Distance Accuracy in Races I appreciate all the insight and just wanted to get a feel for it. If it varies, then so be it. I just have to sing "Let it go" in my head and try to shut the engineering part down (I can't stand that song by the way, but with two little girls under 5 in the house, it's on repeat here). The other reason I was asking was to figure out how I would start my next triathlon. Swimming is my strong suite, so I want to be near the front, but at the same time, this is a huge triathlon (around 1,500) and I don't want to get in anyone's way either. I can't stand it when people start ahead of where they should and if someone has to pass me in the first 200 meters, I seriously kick myself as I don't want to mess someone else's race up. I was looking at last year's results for swimming and the leader came in somewhere in the 19's. I swim a 1,500 around 22-23 minutes in practice so I should be in the 21 range for a race. This would put in the top 20-30 people out of the water. Now, the big question is; is the swim actually 1,500m? If it was long last year, I'll want to sit back in the pack a little, so I don't get in the way of the legit folks. If it was short, I want to be right up front. Other than that...whatever...relatively speaking, I stink at the bike so my you-know-what will be getting passed quite a bit. On the other hand, if I start too far back in the pack and have to duke it out with a lot of people slower than me for position, that will really put me in a bad mood as I will feel like I was shorted a bit. I'm over-thinking things, but this is how I mentally prepare for races. I want to know where I'm going to be for the whole thing, who to pace off of, when to back off, and when to hit it. |
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Started by Spokes Views: 1083 Posts: 12 | |||
Choosing a Race-Pace for a Distance You Never Raced Pages: 1 2 |
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