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2014-09-26 8:27 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by Left Brain

 

I know why some people want to try to sell a winter program that really won't make you a better racer next year, but it doesn't have anything to do with being as fast as you can be at triathlon.

\

Being a "better racer next year" (which many of those plans you are deriding, likely will achieve quite well) and "being as fast as you can be" are not necessarily the same thing.  Few people have the patience to do the latter, especially when there are other tracks that can make them a "better racer next year" than if they went about working on how to be as fast as they can be.  What you get to see, is people planning for the latter.  Willing to not worry if they don't completely maximize this year's results because their real goal is to be the best several years down the line.  Again, those two things are not necessarily inclusive of one another.



2014-09-26 9:19 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by 3mar Regarding LB and Trimybest's comments, I do find that I push too hard every workout and that is something that I've been dealing with. I hear a lot of people one here, and in general, say you need to have a lot of your workouts at a lower effort level and only a few focused hard sessions but to hell if I have the self control for that. And what's weird is, even though I stink it up on the bike, I like it the most for some reason so I don't mind putting in the miles.

This is an area where that engineering sense you've mentioned may be helpful. Are the parameters you're watching the best to use to obtain the greatest outcome? When giving in to the desire to push all the time, what's being watched seems to be asking each day the question of if you went hard today. Is that the system you would design?

2014-09-26 9:37 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
When I'm here at my desk, yes, I can rationalize exactly as you noted. When I'm out there, all logic seems to go out the window. After a lot of workouts, I have that feeling like you would after waking up from too much to drink going, "What was I thinking?"

I have learned a couple of tricks to help. For example; on light days I don't look at my watch. I know that if I look at my watch, I will go harder. This is why; if I look down and see that I'm going slower than I thought, I'll push to make up for it. If I look down and I am going faster than I thought, I'll think, "well, I might as well take advantage of feeling good." and push harder. If I'm going at my desired pace, I'll convince myself that I paced too low and go harder. So I've learned to not even look. That helps a lot, but the self control is tough. I wish I could go out and just destroy it every workout 7 days a week, but I realize that would be counter productive in the long run, and, as much as I hate to admit it...I'm getting old.
2014-09-26 9:54 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Don't wear a watch on those days.

2014-09-26 9:59 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Don't wear a watch on those days.




But then I wouldn't have data....I'm an engineer and that is asking WAY too much. Let's not get crazy here.
2014-09-26 10:09 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

I don't know if you are talking about swimming or running or biking anymore.......but I've NEVER seen a swim workout when the clock wasn't in play. I don't know why you would ever do that. I can see it for biking and running, but not swimming. Obviously the ONLY time it would be ok with a run or bike workout is an easy day.......doing intervals without a watch would be silly.



2014-09-26 10:20 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by Left Brain

I don't know if you are talking about swimming or running or biking anymore.......but I've NEVER seen a swim workout when the clock wasn't in play. I don't know why you would ever do that. I can see it for biking and running, but not swimming. Obviously the ONLY time it would be ok with a run or bike workout is an easy day.......doing intervals without a watch would be silly.




I was referring to a run with the watch. But it goes for the bike too. I totally agree with the swimming comment. There is no way to go without a watch. You'd be rudderless (some pun intended).
2014-09-26 10:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain

I don't know if you are talking about swimming or running or biking anymore.......but I've NEVER seen a swim workout when the clock wasn't in play. I don't know why you would ever do that. I can see it for biking and running, but not swimming. Obviously the ONLY time it would be ok with a run or bike workout is an easy day.......doing intervals without a watch would be silly.

I was referring to a run with the watch. But it goes for the bike too. I totally agree with the swimming comment. There is no way to go without a watch. You'd be rudderless (some pun intended).

I know my kid doesn't do any bike workouts without a watch because it's virtually all interval work.  Maybe hill sessions he doesn't, but that'd be it.  The only time he gets on a bike without an absolute plan and structure is his mountain bike on trails......then he just rides.  His road/TT bikes are for work.

Me, on the other  hand......I'm perfectly happy to ride around aimlessly.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-09-26 10:34 AM
2014-09-26 10:35 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Don't wear a watch on those days.

But then I wouldn't have data....I'm an engineer and that is asking WAY too much. Let's not get crazy here.

I wear the watch on lighter days too. I like having the data as well and if left to my own devices will tend to push into too much moderate. I'll look at it often, but have the goals inverted in that I need to stay below a certain effort level. These kinds of things are just taking in various ideas and using whatever works to accomplish the goals for the day. Some of this stuff does become easier to do when you have a better grasp on watching a little bigger picture. It's easier to accept backing down on the lighter days when I know it will help make the harder days that much better. I've also learned to just enjoy being out there on these days.

2014-09-26 10:38 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Don't wear a watch on those days.

But then I wouldn't have data....I'm an engineer and that is asking WAY too much. Let's not get crazy here.

Pick a route you know the distance from your house.  Check the time when you leave and the time when you return.  Data. 

And, yes LB, I was talking about running.  You can often leave the watch at home for swimming, too, since most pools have a nice big pace clock to use. 

2014-09-26 10:59 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Don't wear a watch on those days.

But then I wouldn't have data....I'm an engineer and that is asking WAY too much. Let's not get crazy here.

Pick a route you know the distance from your house.  Check the time when you leave and the time when you return.  Data. 

And, yes LB, I was talking about running.  You can often leave the watch at home for swimming, too, since most pools have a nice big pace clock to use. 

You mean people actually WEAR a watch while swimming?  Our pools have digital pace clocks....and it drives me nuts.  It starts at 000.0 and goes to 999.9, or something like that, and you have to count the seconds in front of the decimal and behind it....and I'm always lost.  It makes perfect sense to the kids though.....so I figure it's just because I'm old and need a minute and second hand.



2014-09-26 1:25 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Don't wear a watch on those days.

But then I wouldn't have data....I'm an engineer and that is asking WAY too much. Let's not get crazy here.

Pick a route you know the distance from your house.  Check the time when you leave and the time when you return.  Data. 

And, yes LB, I was talking about running.  You can often leave the watch at home for swimming, too, since most pools have a nice big pace clock to use. 

You mean people actually WEAR a watch while swimming?  Our pools have digital pace clocks....and it drives me nuts.  It starts at 000.0 and goes to 999.9, or something like that, and you have to count the seconds in front of the decimal and behind it....and I'm always lost.  It makes perfect sense to the kids though.....so I figure it's just because I'm old and need a minute and second hand.

Obviously, you go to a very fancy pool.  I live with the giant minute & second hand.  But I can only really keep track of the seconds anyway and just assume the minutes from my expected pace.  I figure it's because I'm old. 

2014-09-26 1:33 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Don't wear a watch on those days.

But then I wouldn't have data....I'm an engineer and that is asking WAY too much. Let's not get crazy here.

Pick a route you know the distance from your house.  Check the time when you leave and the time when you return.  Data. 

And, yes LB, I was talking about running.  You can often leave the watch at home for swimming, too, since most pools have a nice big pace clock to use. 

You mean people actually WEAR a watch while swimming?  Our pools have digital pace clocks....and it drives me nuts.  It starts at 000.0 and goes to 999.9, or something like that, and you have to count the seconds in front of the decimal and behind it....and I'm always lost.  It makes perfect sense to the kids though.....so I figure it's just because I'm old and need a minute and second hand.

Obviously, you go to a very fancy pool.  I live with the giant minute & second hand.  But I can only really keep track of the seconds anyway and just assume the minutes from my expected pace.  I figure it's because I'm old. 




I would love to have a pool with a minute/second hand clock. I can never do the math in my head with digital clock (I'm an engineer but 100% calculator dependent). So I have to do all my sets on 1:00 or 0:30 second intervals.
2014-09-26 2:21 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Don't wear a watch on those days.

But then I wouldn't have data....I'm an engineer and that is asking WAY too much. Let's not get crazy here.

Pick a route you know the distance from your house.  Check the time when you leave and the time when you return.  Data. 

And, yes LB, I was talking about running.  You can often leave the watch at home for swimming, too, since most pools have a nice big pace clock to use. 

You mean people actually WEAR a watch while swimming?  Our pools have digital pace clocks....and it drives me nuts.  It starts at 000.0 and goes to 999.9, or something like that, and you have to count the seconds in front of the decimal and behind it....and I'm always lost.  It makes perfect sense to the kids though.....so I figure it's just because I'm old and need a minute and second hand.

Obviously, you go to a very fancy pool.  I live with the giant minute & second hand.  But I can only really keep track of the seconds anyway and just assume the minutes from my expected pace.  I figure it's because I'm old. 

I would love to have a pool with a minute/second hand clock. I can never do the math in my head with digital clock (I'm an engineer but 100% calculator dependent). So I have to do all my sets on 1:00 or 0:30 second intervals.

You are a pox on our people. Unclean!

2014-09-27 10:25 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
I had interval calculation drilled into me when I was 9 and 10 years old.
2014-09-28 5:22 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Don't wear a watch on those days.

But then I wouldn't have data....I'm an engineer and that is asking WAY too much. Let's not get crazy here.

Pick a route you know the distance from your house.  Check the time when you leave and the time when you return.  Data. 

And, yes LB, I was talking about running.  You can often leave the watch at home for swimming, too, since most pools have a nice big pace clock to use. 

You mean people actually WEAR a watch while swimming?  Our pools have digital pace clocks....and it drives me nuts.  It starts at 000.0 and goes to 999.9, or something like that, and you have to count the seconds in front of the decimal and behind it....and I'm always lost.  It makes perfect sense to the kids though.....so I figure it's just because I'm old and need a minute and second hand.

Obviously, you go to a very fancy pool.  I live with the giant minute & second hand.  But I can only really keep track of the seconds anyway and just assume the minutes from my expected pace.  I figure it's because I'm old. 

I would love to have a pool with a minute/second hand clock. I can never do the math in my head with digital clock (I'm an engineer but 100% calculator dependent). So I have to do all my sets on 1:00 or 0:30 second intervals.

My pool has both - a standard pace clock (RED UP!) and a digital clock that just displays the time of day (including seconds).  Since I rarely wear contacts when I swim, the digital clock makes it easy to see the times and even better for taking a peek at the time during a longer interval so I can count by 100s and time.



2014-09-28 8:46 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by Left Brain

You can go here to see how it breaks down for a large AG race.....this is AG Sprint Nationals from this year.  Top 10 swims (out of ~1700) were all 1:08-1:10/ 100Y.  1:21/100Y was 176, so you're right at top 10% if you adjust to meters.

http://www.pigmantri.com/jmsracing/results14/usatage14f.pdf 




Thanks. That definitely reinforces my plan to go to 3 swims/week. So far I've been doing one day a week of workouts (intervals, etc) totalling around 2,700 meters and one day of a 1,500 meter straight swim. That's been it for the past three months since I started. I've been so remedial in biking that I've spent all my time there (the fastest I've went on bike so far was a 21.7 mph average for 12 miles and that was an outlier...I'm normally around 20-21 when pushing hard). But I think I see the need to spend more time on the swim.


Math aside (25m/50m/25yd etc), yes, you can get faster at 1500 by improving your 100, just keep things balanced overall for training. If your next oly distance race isn't till next spring, enjoy focusing on improving your best 100 time and enter some masters meets. Keep it fun & interesting and you'll be more motivated for consistent training!

If you avoid long distance speed improvements for a few months you'll be slower when you start back up, but your potential for faster speeds will improve based on improving your 100 times.
2014-09-29 4:58 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by Left Brain

You can go here to see how it breaks down for a large AG race.....this is AG Sprint Nationals from this year.  Top 10 swims (out of ~1700) were all 1:08-1:10/ 100Y.  1:21/100Y was 176, so you're right at top 10% if you adjust to meters.

http://www.pigmantri.com/jmsracing/results14/usatage14f.pdf 




Thanks. That definitely reinforces my plan to go to 3 swims/week. So far I've been doing one day a week of workouts (intervals, etc) totalling around 2,700 meters and one day of a 1,500 meter straight swim. That's been it for the past three months since I started. I've been so remedial in biking that I've spent all my time there (the fastest I've went on bike so far was a 21.7 mph average for 12 miles and that was an outlier...I'm normally around 20-21 when pushing hard). But I think I see the need to spend more time on the swim.


Math aside (25m/50m/25yd etc), yes, you can get faster at 1500 by improving your 100, just keep things balanced overall for training. If your next oly distance race isn't till next spring, enjoy focusing on improving your best 100 time and enter some masters meets. Keep it fun & interesting and you'll be more motivated for consistent training!

If you avoid long distance speed improvements for a few months you'll be slower when you start back up, but your potential for faster speeds will improve based on improving your 100 times.


Since I live in The Florida Keys, the season for sports here is actually the winter. So although everyone else is digging the trainer out of storage, we're finally getting the dry cooler season that you can train during daylight without risking your health. I have a HIM coming up in January so I'm going to start ramping up for that in another month. I'm not quite sure how I'm going to focus my swimming however. I'm still debating speed vs distance although it really sounds like "both" is the proper answer.
2014-09-29 5:10 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
There was a bit of debate on this thread (and another similar one about race distance)about how my time would translate in an actual triathlon. Some we're saying I'd be first out of the water in smaller local tris and lead pack on bigger ones. Some we're saying I'd be "dusting it up" in the MOP at best. Others were saying top10%. Me personally....I really wasn't sure, and was having trouble deciding where to line up.

I competed in the Escape to Miami Oly yesterday. It was a pretty big field of 879 finishers and it was also a collegiate event with the tri teams from U of M, UCF, FU, and others there. There was also a group of "seeded" athletes, not sure if that meant pros or not. Anyway, I ended up 41 out of 879 out of the water. That put me in the top 5% of what I would assume would be an average mix for a large triathlon. Of the 46 that beat me, about half were collegiate or seeded. Not really with the leaders but I'd venture to call that FOP.
2014-09-29 6:00 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by 3mar
Some we're saying I'd be "dusting it up" in the MOP at best.


At 21:30 1500m (1:25/100) you will be FOP at most Olympic and HIM races. Anyone who says MOP has no idea of where AG racing is at.
You will probably find you may even be more FOP the longer the distance.

If you want a good comparison, take a look at axteraa's race reports. I think he is a 20min 1500m swimmer.
He has alway been FOP on the swim and has developed a strong bike and run with time. He may be more your AG...not sure.
He also has raced big and small events

2014-09-29 6:35 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by 3mar


Since I live in The Florida Keys, the season for sports here is actually the winter. So although everyone else is digging the trainer out of storage, we're finally getting the dry cooler season that you can train during daylight without risking your health. I have a HIM coming up in January so I'm going to start ramping up for that in another month. I'm not quite sure how I'm going to focus my swimming however. I'm still debating speed vs distance although it really sounds like "both" is the proper answer.


Focus your swimming for your fastest 1.2 mi OW swim. That doesn't mean don't work on speed for short distances. But if your January race of priority was a masters meet in which you'd be racing the 100 free, then you'd prioritize speed over distance.

it's never either/or or at least it doesn't have to be...it's planning your training to peak for a given duration/distance event.


2014-09-29 9:08 PM
in reply to: 3mar


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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by 3mar There was a bit of debate on this thread (and another similar one about race distance)about how my time would translate in an actual triathlon. Some we're saying I'd be first out of the water in smaller local tris and lead pack on bigger ones. Some we're saying I'd be "dusting it up" in the MOP at best. Others were saying top10%. Me personally....I really wasn't sure, and was having trouble deciding where to line up. I competed in the Escape to Miami Oly yesterday. It was a pretty big field of 879 finishers and it was also a collegiate event with the tri teams from U of M, UCF, FU, and others there. There was also a group of "seeded" athletes, not sure if that meant pros or not. Anyway, I ended up 41 out of 879 out of the water. That put me in the top 5% of what I would assume would be an average mix for a large triathlon. Of the 46 that beat me, about half were collegiate or seeded. Not really with the leaders but I'd venture to call that FOP.

 

The debate is actually less about your absolute speed, and more about how well you would make the transition from pool speed to OWS race speed. Clearly you've had no problems at all with the typical OWS issues, but i'd venture to say that most people here and elsewhere are less impressive in their OWS race day than they are in the pool, between the sighting, body contact, etc.

 

In your case, these issues were clearly not limiters, so you ended up doing better than most people expect, but in most cases, for those making a comeback to swimming, race OWS times can be slower than pool speed and overall performance, sometimes particularly so. 

 

 

2014-09-30 5:28 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by yazmaster

Originally posted by 3mar There was a bit of debate on this thread (and another similar one about race distance)about how my time would translate in an actual triathlon. Some we're saying I'd be first out of the water in smaller local tris and lead pack on bigger ones. Some we're saying I'd be "dusting it up" in the MOP at best. Others were saying top10%. Me personally....I really wasn't sure, and was having trouble deciding where to line up. I competed in the Escape to Miami Oly yesterday. It was a pretty big field of 879 finishers and it was also a collegiate event with the tri teams from U of M, UCF, FU, and others there. There was also a group of "seeded" athletes, not sure if that meant pros or not. Anyway, I ended up 41 out of 879 out of the water. That put me in the top 5% of what I would assume would be an average mix for a large triathlon. Of the 46 that beat me, about half were collegiate or seeded. Not really with the leaders but I'd venture to call that FOP.

 

The debate is actually less about your absolute speed, and more about how well you would make the transition from pool speed to OWS race speed. Clearly you've had no problems at all with the typical OWS issues, but i'd venture to say that most people here and elsewhere are less impressive in their OWS race day than they are in the pool, between the sighting, body contact, etc.

 

In your case, these issues were clearly not limiters, so you ended up doing better than most people expect, but in most cases, for those making a comeback to swimming, race OWS times can be slower than pool speed and overall performance, sometimes particularly so. 

 

 




That makes sense. The pushing, shoving, etc of the first couple 100 meters actually got me swimming faster. Then once I settled in with a pack at the front we all sort of fell into the same rhythm. It was weird, like when you walk with people and end up subconsciously walking the same exact step. For about the last 400 meters I was next to this guy who was on the exact same stroke as me, but he was breathing right and I was breathing left so we were staring at each other ever single stroke. To make things weirder, we were wearing the same goggles so it was like looking at a reflection. Anyway, I guess my point is; I think all those OWS things actually helped. I probably wouldn't be as fast OWS by myself.
2014-09-30 11:15 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Great full tri. How'd you feel about the open water issues in the tri conditions? Do you train in open water down there? My wife & I fell in love with Key Largo few summers ago. Stayed Bayside. Did some light swimming there, but it was before I got into this training. Can't wait to get back down there!

Open water solo training efforts became significantly improved once I got the Garmin FR310xt & put it in my swim cap. Helped me improve time, swimming straight and acts as a coach with me as I set certain vibrate alerts for time/distance etc. How was the water in the Escape Tri? You're a fast pool swimmer - how comfortable are you in the wetsuit? I don't think I'll ever like it. Constricts muscles lil too much - hate it
2014-09-30 11:23 AM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by TJHammer

Great full tri. How'd you feel about the open water issues in the tri conditions? Do you train in open water down there? My wife & I fell in love with Key Largo few summers ago. Stayed Bayside. Did some light swimming there, but it was before I got into this training. Can't wait to get back down there!

Open water solo training efforts became significantly improved once I got the Garmin FR310xt & put it in my swim cap. Helped me improve time, swimming straight and acts as a coach with me as I set certain vibrate alerts for time/distance etc. How was the water in the Escape Tri? You're a fast pool swimmer - how comfortable are you in the wetsuit? I don't think I'll ever like it. Constricts muscles lil too much - hate it


I had no issues OWS. The competition actually helped me out a lot and I finished 41 our of around 900 on the swim. The only OWS I've done is my three triathlons. There aren't groups here and I'm not 100% comfortable going out alone with all the boat traffic. The water is too warm for wetsuits and I've never tried one. I did watch a video of "how to put on a wetsuit" and frankly, it gave me a freakin panic attack just imagining the claustrophobia. If you find yourself in Key Largo again, let me know and we can head out. Your profile says you're from Brooklyn, do you live by the beaches? I used to live in Manhattan before moving here, I used to take the train down to Long Beach all the time in the summer. I never did make it to the Coney Island though.
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