Swim stroke rate

Champion

9407

Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by DavidJG2

Thanks all for the replies, to some of the questions, my pace is 1.45/100 my strokes per 25 m length on average is 21,

How are your turns? I ask because if your turns are really good then I would say that your stroke per length is pretty high but if you have poor turns, then your spl is only high. As to your turnover, taking turns out, you are looking at 1.25 strokes per second and probably closer to 1 stroke per second with the turns included. Finally, you are moving about 1.2m per stroke with turns included so probably pretty close to 1m per stroke if we correct for turns.

With this you can now "play" within a set, such as a 40x50, with different stroke rates and see how this affects your pace. There are tools to do this, such as the tempo trainer, or you can simply count strokes and focus on different turnover rates depending on how you want to approach it. You can see what happens with different stroke rates and then try to hit the sweet spot.

Some may recommend swim golf and, while I've never been a fan of it, it may be something that you could find some benefit in trying. Swim 50's and add your time for the 50 and strokes for the 50's and see what gives you the lowest number.

Ultimately, it isn't going to be one thing in isolation (stroke rate, distance per stroke, stroke per length, effort, etc) that gives you the best swim split; it is going to be putting them all together that will hopefully see continued improvement. The improvement is measured by the pace clock (or swim positioning in a known field if using triathlon results to measure progress) but that doesn't mean the other elements don't matter as if you are aware of the impact of things beyond pace, you can bring those to bear in your training and racing to swim faster.

Shane

My Race Log

4	Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Thx Shane- appreciate the input, will take a look at what you say,

538

Brooklyn, New York

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by 3mar

Personally, I think that although stroke rate may be helpful, if you're just starting out and have a lot to work on, it's far down on the list of things to look at. There are 50 other things you should be looking at first to fine tune your stroke before looking at stroke rate.

The big thing here is stroke rate is an effect, not a cause. If you want to improve your swimming you should be looking at causes, then maybe, when you make a change, use stroke rate to gauge it. Not the other way around.

The other big problem is that high or low stroke rate can both be bad. If you're inefficient and low, you may just be gliding, so it's not a tell all.

The biggest metric as far as effects go, is how fast you go from one side to the other. Start with that as your yardstick and when you get to the point of nit-picking, then go to stroke rate.

That's what I've begun to do, I may check back in with you on my progress this winter. Swim smooth calculations seem to have you work towards finding a sweet spot complimentary to the most efficiency at one's level of fitness: pace per 100 - SPL - and stroke rate.

My Race Log

538

Brooklyn, New York

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by DavidJG2

Thanks all for the replies, to some of the questions, my pace is 1.45/100 my strokes per 25 m length on average is 21,

How are your turns? I ask because if your turns are really good then I would say that your stroke per length is pretty high but if you have poor turns, then your spl is only high. As to your turnover, taking turns out, you are looking at 1.25 strokes per second and probably closer to 1 stroke per second with the turns included. Finally, you are moving about 1.2m per stroke with turns included so probably pretty close to 1m per stroke if we correct for turns.

With this you can now "play" within a set, such as a 40x50, with different stroke rates and see how this affects your pace. There are tools to do this, such as the tempo trainer, or you can simply count strokes and focus on different turnover rates depending on how you want to approach it. You can see what happens with different stroke rates and then try to hit the sweet spot.

Some may recommend swim golf and, while I've never been a fan of it, it may be something that you could find some benefit in trying. Swim 50's and add your time for the 50 and strokes for the 50's and see what gives you the lowest number.

Ultimately, it isn't going to be one thing in isolation (stroke rate, distance per stroke, stroke per length, effort, etc) that gives you the best swim split; it is going to be putting them all together that will hopefully see continued improvement. The improvement is measured by the pace clock (or swim positioning in a known field if using triathlon results to measure progress) but that doesn't mean the other elements don't matter as if you are aware of the impact of things beyond pace, you can bring those to bear in your training and racing to swim faster.

Shane

Shane, have you used the tempo trainer? I used a metronome to improve my run cadence in the past. I was figuring on using the tempo to work on stroke rate, because I'm in the same boat as David

My Race Log

Richland, Washington

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by axteraa

Geez, I didn't know stroke rate was as controversial as flip turns.

To the OP, welcome to BT! I hope those who completely discounted your question haven't discouraged you from posting further. There are some very knowledgeable people who have asked questions and offered advice that was relevant to your question. If you can weed through the chaff, see if you can get the information they asked for and I'm sure they will be able to provide further advice on how you should proceed.

Turnover rate is absolutely controversial. There are also some very knowledgeable people that flat out said it doesn't matter. Because, it flat out doesn't matter. Each person is different. Everyone will have a different stroke count. You cannot possibly tell me that my stroke count doesn't work for me... because at the end of the day I'm still number 1 or 2 out of the water. You can't tell me that turn over rate matters more than the efficiency of each pull. I counted my strokes this morning during my 3 mile swim. 11 was my average SPL... doing 0:55 100's... for 3 miles. Are you going to tell me I needed to increase my stroke count? Unlike those that just "coach" people, I'm still in the water swimming and coaching. Just because someone says "don't worry about this" doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. Sorry to cloud this thread with "Chaff," I guess only those that are USAT coach certified and those that "coach coaches" are able to respond to swimming threads. Not the guy that missed Olympic Trials by .02... or has swam 3 21+ mile open water swims. The same guy that has spent over a month training at the Olympic Training Facility in Colorado Springs. That guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

OP - I'll break this down for you. Do what feels right. If you are hell bent on reducing your stroke rate, do lots of fist swimming. Make a fist, and swim. This teaches you to use more of your arm for a pull as your hand is in a fist. Learn to be more efficient in the water and your stroke count will drop. However. This doesn't work for everyone. Some people just have to have a fast turnover. That's just how they perform better. Sorry if this is just "chaff" to some.

Edited by Swimaway 2014-12-10 9:50 AM

Not a Coach

11473

Media, PA

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by Swimaway

Originally posted by axteraa

Geez, I didn't know stroke rate was as controversial as flip turns.

To the OP, welcome to BT! I hope those who completely discounted your question haven't discouraged you from posting further. There are some very knowledgeable people who have asked questions and offered advice that was relevant to your question. If you can weed through the chaff, see if you can get the information they asked for and I'm sure they will be able to provide further advice on how you should proceed.

Turnover rate is absolutely controversial. There are also some very knowledgeable people that flat out said it doesn't matter. Because, it flat out doesn't matter. Each person is different. Everyone will have a different stroke count. You cannot possibly tell me that my stroke count doesn't work for me... because at the end of the day I'm still number 1 or 2 out of the water. You can't tell me that turn over rate matters more than the efficiency of each pull. I counted my strokes this morning during my 3 mile swim. 11 was my average SPL... doing 0:55 100's... for 3 miles. Are you going to tell me I needed to increase my stroke count? Unlike those that just "coach" people, I'm still in the water swimming and coaching. Just because someone says "don't worry about this" doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. Sorry to cloud this thread with "Chaff," I guess only those that are USAT coach certified and those that "coach coaches" are able to respond to swimming threads. Not the guy that missed Olympic Trials by .02... or has swam 3 21+ mile open water swims. The same guy that has spent over a month training at the Olympic Training Facility in Colorado Springs. That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. OP - I'll break this down for you. Do what feels right. If you are hell bent on reducing your stroke rate, do lots of fist swimming. Make a fist, and swim. This teaches you to use more of your arm for a pull as your hand is in a fist. Learn to be more efficient in the water and your stroke count will drop. However. This doesn't work for everyone. Some people just have to have a fast turnover. That's just how they perform better. Sorry if this is just "chaff" to some.

Not "chaff". Refreshing. Thanks for sharing.

My Race Log

Pro

15655

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Swimaway

Originally posted by axteraa

Geez, I didn't know stroke rate was as controversial as flip turns.

To the OP, welcome to BT! I hope those who completely discounted your question haven't discouraged you from posting further. There are some very knowledgeable people who have asked questions and offered advice that was relevant to your question. If you can weed through the chaff, see if you can get the information they asked for and I'm sure they will be able to provide further advice on how you should proceed.

Turnover rate is absolutely controversial. There are also some very knowledgeable people that flat out said it doesn't matter. Because, it flat out doesn't matter. Each person is different. Everyone will have a different stroke count. You cannot possibly tell me that my stroke count doesn't work for me... because at the end of the day I'm still number 1 or 2 out of the water. You can't tell me that turn over rate matters more than the efficiency of each pull. I counted my strokes this morning during my 3 mile swim. 11 was my average SPL... doing 0:55 100's... for 3 miles. Are you going to tell me I needed to increase my stroke count? Unlike those that just "coach" people, I'm still in the water swimming and coaching. Just because someone says "don't worry about this" doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. Sorry to cloud this thread with "Chaff," I guess only those that are USAT coach certified and those that "coach coaches" are able to respond to swimming threads. Not the guy that missed Olympic Trials by .02... or has swam 3 21+ mile open water swims. The same guy that has spent over a month training at the Olympic Training Facility in Colorado Springs. That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. OP - I'll break this down for you. Do what feels right. If you are hell bent on reducing your stroke rate, do lots of fist swimming. Make a fist, and swim. This teaches you to use more of your arm for a pull as your hand is in a fist. Learn to be more efficient in the water and your stroke count will drop. However. This doesn't work for everyone. Some people just have to have a fast turnover. That's just how they perform better. Sorry if this is just "chaff" to some.

Not "chaff". Refreshing. Thanks for sharing.

In all of the time I get to spend around fast swimmers and listen to coaches talk them through the learning stages (and these are level 5 swim coaches of which oine is a former olympic team member and all of them have coached numerous past and present national caliber swimmers) I have NEVER heard stroke rate come up. I hear body position, I hear stroke efficiency, and I hear KICK!!!!! being drilled constantly.......but I've never heard or seen any words or work on stroke rate.......and I notice a lot of different rates within a group of people who all swim really fast. I'm not buying stroke rate as important to fast swimming.

Member

1748

Exton, PA

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Swimaway

Originally posted by axteraa

Geez, I didn't know stroke rate was as controversial as flip turns.

To the OP, welcome to BT! I hope those who completely discounted your question haven't discouraged you from posting further. There are some very knowledgeable people who have asked questions and offered advice that was relevant to your question. If you can weed through the chaff, see if you can get the information they asked for and I'm sure they will be able to provide further advice on how you should proceed.

Turnover rate is absolutely controversial. There are also some very knowledgeable people that flat out said it doesn't matter. Because, it flat out doesn't matter. Each person is different. Everyone will have a different stroke count. You cannot possibly tell me that my stroke count doesn't work for me... because at the end of the day I'm still number 1 or 2 out of the water. You can't tell me that turn over rate matters more than the efficiency of each pull. I counted my strokes this morning during my 3 mile swim. 11 was my average SPL... doing 0:55 100's... for 3 miles. Are you going to tell me I needed to increase my stroke count? Unlike those that just "coach" people, I'm still in the water swimming and coaching. Just because someone says "don't worry about this" doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. Sorry to cloud this thread with "Chaff," I guess only those that are USAT coach certified and those that "coach coaches" are able to respond to swimming threads. Not the guy that missed Olympic Trials by .02... or has swam 3 21+ mile open water swims. The same guy that has spent over a month training at the Olympic Training Facility in Colorado Springs. That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. OP - I'll break this down for you. Do what feels right. If you are hell bent on reducing your stroke rate, do lots of fist swimming. Make a fist, and swim. This teaches you to use more of your arm for a pull as your hand is in a fist. Learn to be more efficient in the water and your stroke count will drop. However. This doesn't work for everyone. Some people just have to have a fast turnover. That's just how they perform better. Sorry if this is just "chaff" to some.

Not "chaff". Refreshing. Thanks for sharing.

In all of the time I get to spend around fast swimmers and listen to coaches talk them through the learning stages (and these are level 5 swim coaches of which oine is a former olympic team member and all of them have coached numerous past and present national caliber swimmers) I have NEVER heard stroke rate come up. I hear body position, I hear stroke efficiency, and I hear KICK!!!!! being drilled constantly.......but I've never heard or seen any words or work on stroke rate.......and I notice a lot of different rates within a group of people who all swim really fast. I'm not buying stroke rate as important to fast swimming.

I was wondering when you were going to post on this!

Stroke rate is extra data points for triathletes!!!

My Race Log

Coach

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by DavidJG2

So I'll add some more background, I've been swimming for about 3 years now, my pace now is 1:45/100, my strokes per length averages about 21 per 25m length, my strokes per min OW was approx 56/ min, it has recently dropped to about 50 / min

How tall are you as well?

depending on how long your pushoff is, 21 strokes/25m length is a little on the high side depending on your height. If you are at least average height you're converting about 55-60% of your height/wingspan into forward movement. Since you are concerned about increasing rate at the same time, it's likely that your stroke will get even shorter. once you get to 50-55% of height converted to forward movement or less you're just not moving very well through the water and using a lot of energy. So again, guessing here, at average height and an "OK" pushoff in a 25m pool (to the flags?), if you can reach 19or 20 SPL, that would suggest you're more efficiently moving forward and not just pushing water out of the way.

Get a tempo trainer and set it for your current tempo , 50 strokes/min is about 1.2 sec / stroke. At that rate with good form, you should be able to convert more of your wingspan to forward movement (ie take fewer strokes).

So that suggests you have a couple of specific technique elements to improve that should take priority over simply increasing rate.

That's why knowing the combination of metrics and combining it with your height is helpful. Because even without a coach present it can help you diagnose if your speed issues are due to form vs. fitness.

Using the tempo trainer, experiemnt with counterintuitively slowing your rate bit by bit from your current and see if you can get a more effective stroke as measured by a better conversion of height into forward movement...measure by your SPL.

There's no "correct" SPL, but rather a range of SPLs that indicate how well you are moving forward, not just pushing water around.

When you are moving forward better, then you can plan with speeding up the tempo and holding on to that length.

Based on your metrics, i think you have a couple of technique elements that would give you faster improvement in your speed, even if you kept the same tempo.

My Race Log

Elite

7783

PEI, Canada

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by Swimaway

Originally posted by axteraa

Geez, I didn't know stroke rate was as controversial as flip turns.

To the OP, welcome to BT! I hope those who completely discounted your question haven't discouraged you from posting further. There are some very knowledgeable people who have asked questions and offered advice that was relevant to your question. If you can weed through the chaff, see if you can get the information they asked for and I'm sure they will be able to provide further advice on how you should proceed.

Turnover rate is absolutely controversial. There are also some very knowledgeable people that flat out said it doesn't matter. Because, it flat out doesn't matter. Each person is different. Everyone will have a different stroke count. You cannot possibly tell me that my stroke count doesn't work for me... because at the end of the day I'm still number 1 or 2 out of the water. You can't tell me that turn over rate matters more than the efficiency of each pull. I counted my strokes this morning during my 3 mile swim. 11 was my average SPL... doing 0:55 100's... for 3 miles. Are you going to tell me I needed to increase my stroke count? Unlike those that just "coach" people, I'm still in the water swimming and coaching. Just because someone says "don't worry about this" doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. Sorry to cloud this thread with "Chaff," I guess only those that are USAT coach certified and those that "coach coaches" are able to respond to swimming threads. Not the guy that missed Olympic Trials by .02... or has swam 3 21+ mile open water swims. The same guy that has spent over a month training at the Olympic Training Facility in Colorado Springs. That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. OP - I'll break this down for you. Do what feels right. If you are hell bent on reducing your stroke rate, do lots of fist swimming. Make a fist, and swim. This teaches you to use more of your arm for a pull as your hand is in a fist. Learn to be more efficient in the water and your stroke count will drop. However. This doesn't work for everyone. Some people just have to have a fast turnover. That's just how they perform better. Sorry if this is just "chaff" to some.

In no way am I suggesting that everyone should have the same stroke count or stroke rate. I assure you that my stroke rate would fall well out of what many would consider normal and yet I too am often #1 or 2 out of the water. I do however believe that there is some validity to experimenting with various stroke rates to see what results in the best speed for a particular swimmer. Especially when you can get help from someone who has lots of experience teaching others to improve their swimming using techniques like that. There happens to be someone like that in this thread. You obviously feel this is not important and I have no issue with that. Perhaps my chaff comment was a bit harsh but 2 of the first 3 replies to the question basically told him he was wasting his time without even knowing any specifics of his current swimming.

My Race Log

Pro

15655

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Swimaway

Originally posted by axteraa

Geez, I didn't know stroke rate was as controversial as flip turns.

To the OP, welcome to BT! I hope those who completely discounted your question haven't discouraged you from posting further. There are some very knowledgeable people who have asked questions and offered advice that was relevant to your question. If you can weed through the chaff, see if you can get the information they asked for and I'm sure they will be able to provide further advice on how you should proceed.

Turnover rate is absolutely controversial. There are also some very knowledgeable people that flat out said it doesn't matter. Because, it flat out doesn't matter. Each person is different. Everyone will have a different stroke count. You cannot possibly tell me that my stroke count doesn't work for me... because at the end of the day I'm still number 1 or 2 out of the water. You can't tell me that turn over rate matters more than the efficiency of each pull. I counted my strokes this morning during my 3 mile swim. 11 was my average SPL... doing 0:55 100's... for 3 miles. Are you going to tell me I needed to increase my stroke count? Unlike those that just "coach" people, I'm still in the water swimming and coaching. Just because someone says "don't worry about this" doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. Sorry to cloud this thread with "Chaff," I guess only those that are USAT coach certified and those that "coach coaches" are able to respond to swimming threads. Not the guy that missed Olympic Trials by .02... or has swam 3 21+ mile open water swims. The same guy that has spent over a month training at the Olympic Training Facility in Colorado Springs. That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. OP - I'll break this down for you. Do what feels right. If you are hell bent on reducing your stroke rate, do lots of fist swimming. Make a fist, and swim. This teaches you to use more of your arm for a pull as your hand is in a fist. Learn to be more efficient in the water and your stroke count will drop. However. This doesn't work for everyone. Some people just have to have a fast turnover. That's just how they perform better. Sorry if this is just "chaff" to some.

Not "chaff". Refreshing. Thanks for sharing.

In all of the time I get to spend around fast swimmers and listen to coaches talk them through the learning stages (and these are level 5 swim coaches of which oine is a former olympic team member and all of them have coached numerous past and present national caliber swimmers) I have NEVER heard stroke rate come up. I hear body position, I hear stroke efficiency, and I hear KICK!!!!! being drilled constantly.......but I've never heard or seen any words or work on stroke rate.......and I notice a lot of different rates within a group of people who all swim really fast. I'm not buying stroke rate as important to fast swimming.

I was wondering when you were going to post on this! Stroke rate is extra data points for triathletes!!!

I am absolutely convinced there is NOTHING about swim/bike/run that a triathlete can't complicate down to the point of madness. Geez

Not a Coach

11473

Media, PA

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by AdventureBear

That's why knowing the combination of metrics and combining it with your height is helpful. Because even without a coach present it can help you diagnose if your speed issues are due to form vs. fitness.

I don't mean any offense Suzanne. And despite my post about the "refreshing" opinion given above, I do appreciate that there is nothing inherently wrong with what you (and others who use the data) are analyzing (and do think it is worthwhile to experiment, and try to get comfortable, with different turnover rates). If the data helps you or any athlete focus or stay engaged, that seems like a good enough reason to do it. But all the OP had to do was post his speed and any coach could tell you the answer is yes and yes. Of course, I am no coach. Nor even a very good swimmer.

My Race Log

Coach

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by Left Brain

I guess we could try to get Janet Evans and Sun Yang to weigh in on the importance of stroke rate to speed in distance swimming.

If nothing else, we'd all probably end up with headaches.

Sun Yang converts over 70% of his height to forward movement with his 2bt/4bt kick AND does it at a rate faster than most triathletes. Double win, especially given how tall he is.

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Pro

15655

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by Left Brain

I guess we could try to get Janet Evans and Sun Yang to weigh in on the importance of stroke rate to speed in distance swimming.

If nothing else, we'd all probably end up with headaches.

Sun Yang converts over 70% of his height to forward movement with his 2bt/4bt kick AND does it at a rate faster than most triathletes. Double win, especially given how tall he is.

And then there's Janet Evans......which is where the headache starts. It was my intention to point out the extremes.

Again.....I watch/listen to swim coaches more than I want to, and even more once I got involved with officiating. I can't tell that they care at all about stroke rate. I watch a lot of fast swimming as well.....stroke rate is all over the page. It leads me to believe there is no "one way" that is best......so other swim "basics" are probably much more of a key to fast swimming.....like body position, kicking, catch, etc.

I also know this about swimming.......MOST triathletes don't spend enough time at it to really be any good at it.

Edited by Left Brain 2014-12-10 1:13 PM

Coach

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by AdventureBear

That's why knowing the combination of metrics and combining it with your height is helpful. Because even without a coach present it can help you diagnose if your speed issues are due to form vs. fitness.

I don't mean any offense Suzanne. And despite my post about the "refreshing" opinion given above, I do appreciate that there is nothing inherently wrong with what you (and others who use the data) are analyzing (and do think it is worthwhile to experiment, and try to get comfortable, with different turnover rates). If the data helps you or any athlete focus or stay engaged, that seems like a good enough reason to do it. But all the OP had to do was post his speed and any coach could tell you the answer is yes and yes. Of course, I am no coach. Nor even a very good swimmer.

Thanks for the reply, No offense taken, really. I was irritated that the OP was being dismissed as wasting his time without anyone knowing more about the issue. You're right all he had to do was post the info...but he didn't know that that was helpful info. And anyone offering help could give better help knowing the info instead of jumping on a party line of "X" isn't important because I never did it.

Maybe I could have had different initial responses, but I just get aggravated at snarky replies that under the surface are an attempt to undermine the intentions of the OP. Asking questions is always a better way to start problems solving.

There are so many ways to train, so many different ways that people think and as adults, as humans, being able to look beyond our own ego in order to help someone get to the issue they really need help with is a way that makes it much nicer to work with each other...even of opinions differ.

The OP wanted to increase his rate...but knowing a bigger picture, my opinion is that there are other more pressing things he can work on first...and then worry about the rate. That's where opinions can differ once we know all the info...that's my opinion and it doesn't have to agree with anyones. The OP can use my feedback or Shane's feedback or Swimaways or anyone else's that he chooses to and resonates with.

Let's just keep this a pleasant place to interact by not making assumptions that the person asking the question has the same background knowledge as the person answering the question. Saying "I've never done this so it's not important" has no bearing on the person asking the question, and doesn't diminish that the other person followed a different path. AT the same time it, not liking the response "I've never done this ..." doesn't diminish the real life accomplishments of that person who followed a path clearly different from the person asking the original question

Can't we all just get along?

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Coach

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by Left Brain

I guess we could try to get Janet Evans and Sun Yang to weigh in on the importance of stroke rate to speed in distance swimming.

If nothing else, we'd all probably end up with headaches.

Sun Yang converts over 70% of his height to forward movement with his 2bt/4bt kick AND does it at a rate faster than most triathletes. Double win, especially given how tall he is.

And then there's Janet Evans......which is where the headache starts.

Janet Evans is even shorter than I am...and has better underwater mechanics, yet there's a limit to how far each stroke will take you when you've got short arms...the only way to beat taller people who are also great swimmers is to have a great turnover. No headaches needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl7ey0Ydp88

If I could get my rate up to match hers, I'd be ecstatic.

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This user's post has been ignored.

Extreme Veteran

2261

Ridgeland, Mississippi

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by Left Brain

I guess we could try to get Janet Evans and Sun Yang to weigh in on the importance of stroke rate to speed in distance swimming.

If nothing else, we'd all probably end up with headaches.

Sun Yang converts over 70% of his height to forward movement with his 2bt/4bt kick AND does it at a rate faster than most triathletes. Double win, especially given how tall he is.

Being on the good stuff helps too...
http://olympictalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/24/sun-yang-failed-drug-test-suspension-swimming-olympics-china/

Edited by msteiner 2014-12-10 1:22 PM

My Race Log

Coach

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by Left Brain

I guess we could try to get Janet Evans and Sun Yang to weigh in on the importance of stroke rate to speed in distance swimming.

If nothing else, we'd all probably end up with headaches.

Sun Yang converts over 70% of his height to forward movement with his 2bt/4bt kick AND does it at a rate faster than most triathletes. Double win, especially given how tall he is.

Being on the good stuff helps too...
http://olympictalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/24/sun-yang-failed-drug-test-suspension-swimming-olympics-china/

I didn't want to go on record as commenting about that. It looks like the drug he had in his system is going to be moved off the WADA list...so would that make him no longer a doper?

My Race Log

Not a Coach

11473

Media, PA

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by AdventureBear

That's why knowing the combination of metrics and combining it with your height is helpful. Because even without a coach present it can help you diagnose if your speed issues are due to form vs. fitness.

I don't mean any offense Suzanne. And despite my post about the "refreshing" opinion given above, I do appreciate that there is nothing inherently wrong with what you (and others who use the data) are analyzing (and do think it is worthwhile to experiment, and try to get comfortable, with different turnover rates). If the data helps you or any athlete focus or stay engaged, that seems like a good enough reason to do it. But all the OP had to do was post his speed and any coach could tell you the answer is yes and yes. Of course, I am no coach. Nor even a very good swimmer.

Thanks for the reply, No offense taken, really. I was irritated that the OP was being dismissed as wasting his time without anyone knowing more about the issue. You're right all he had to do was post the info...but he didn't know that that was helpful info. And anyone offering help could give better help knowing the info instead of jumping on a party line of "X" isn't important because I never did it. Maybe I could have had different initial responses, but I just get aggravated at snarky replies that under the surface are an attempt to undermine the intentions of the OP. Asking questions is always a better way to start problems solving. There are so many ways to train, so many different ways that people think and as adults, as humans, being able to look beyond our own ego in order to help someone get to the issue they really need help with is a way that makes it much nicer to work with each other...even of opinions differ. The OP wanted to increase his rate...but knowing a bigger picture, my opinion is that there are other more pressing things he can work on first...and then worry about the rate. That's where opinions can differ once we know all the info...that's my opinion and it doesn't have to agree with anyones. The OP can use my feedback or Shane's feedback or Swimaways or anyone else's that he chooses to and resonates with. Let's just keep this a pleasant place to interact by not making assumptions that the person asking the question has the same background knowledge as the person answering the question. Saying "I've never done this so it's not important" has no bearing on the person asking the question, and doesn't diminish that the other person followed a different path. AT the same time it, not liking the response "I've never done this ..." doesn't diminish the real life accomplishments of that person who followed a path clearly different from the person asking the original question Can't we all just get along?

This is not my post and I have zero idea of Mike's intentions in writing it:

why do you count strokes or strokes/min? I have 35 years of competitive swimming experience and have no idea how many stroke/min I swim.

Why is that undermining the OP's question? It seems a legit question by someone with experience who sees no need to try to monitor it to solve any swimming problems. Being the most helpful doesn't always entail answering an asked question. If people only ever answered a question directly, the person asking may never realize that there is a question they should ask that they haven't thought about asking.

Can't we all just get along, indeed. We just don't have to all agree.

My Race Log

Richland, Washington

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by AdventureBear

That's why knowing the combination of metrics and combining it with your height is helpful. Because even without a coach present it can help you diagnose if your speed issues are due to form vs. fitness.

I don't mean any offense Suzanne. And despite my post about the "refreshing" opinion given above, I do appreciate that there is nothing inherently wrong with what you (and others who use the data) are analyzing (and do think it is worthwhile to experiment, and try to get comfortable, with different turnover rates). If the data helps you or any athlete focus or stay engaged, that seems like a good enough reason to do it. But all the OP had to do was post his speed and any coach could tell you the answer is yes and yes. Of course, I am no coach. Nor even a very good swimmer.

Thanks for the reply, No offense taken, really. I was irritated that the OP was being dismissed as wasting his time without anyone knowing more about the issue. You're right all he had to do was post the info...but he didn't know that that was helpful info. And anyone offering help could give better help knowing the info instead of jumping on a party line of "X" isn't important because I never did it.

Maybe I could have had different initial responses, but I just get aggravated at snarky replies that under the surface are an attempt to undermine the intentions of the OP. Asking questions is always a better way to start problems solving.

There are so many ways to train, so many different ways that people think and as adults, as humans, being able to look beyond our own ego in order to help someone get to the issue they really need help with is a way that makes it much nicer to work with each other...even of opinions differ.

The OP wanted to increase his rate...but knowing a bigger picture, my opinion is that there are other more pressing things he can work on first...and then worry about the rate. That's where opinions can differ once we know all the info...that's my opinion and it doesn't have to agree with anyones. The OP can use my feedback or Shane's feedback or Swimaways or anyone else's that he chooses to and resonates with.

Let's just keep this a pleasant place to interact by not making assumptions that the person asking the question has the same background knowledge as the person answering the question. Saying "I've never done this so it's not important" has no bearing on the person asking the question, and doesn't diminish that the other person followed a different path. AT the same time it, not liking the response "I've never done this ..." doesn't diminish the real life accomplishments of that person who followed a path clearly different from the person asking the original question

Can't we all just get along?

Fair enough.

Expert

2547

The Woodlands, TX

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Swimaway

Originally posted by axteraa

Geez, I didn't know stroke rate was as controversial as flip turns.

To the OP, welcome to BT! I hope those who completely discounted your question haven't discouraged you from posting further. There are some very knowledgeable people who have asked questions and offered advice that was relevant to your question. If you can weed through the chaff, see if you can get the information they asked for and I'm sure they will be able to provide further advice on how you should proceed.

Turnover rate is absolutely controversial. There are also some very knowledgeable people that flat out said it doesn't matter. Because, it flat out doesn't matter. Each person is different. Everyone will have a different stroke count. You cannot possibly tell me that my stroke count doesn't work for me... because at the end of the day I'm still number 1 or 2 out of the water. You can't tell me that turn over rate matters more than the efficiency of each pull. I counted my strokes this morning during my 3 mile swim. 11 was my average SPL... doing 0:55 100's... for 3 miles. Are you going to tell me I needed to increase my stroke count? Unlike those that just "coach" people, I'm still in the water swimming and coaching. Just because someone says "don't worry about this" doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. Sorry to cloud this thread with "Chaff," I guess only those that are USAT coach certified and those that "coach coaches" are able to respond to swimming threads. Not the guy that missed Olympic Trials by .02... or has swam 3 21+ mile open water swims. The same guy that has spent over a month training at the Olympic Training Facility in Colorado Springs. That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. OP - I'll break this down for you. Do what feels right. If you are hell bent on reducing your stroke rate, do lots of fist swimming. Make a fist, and swim. This teaches you to use more of your arm for a pull as your hand is in a fist. Learn to be more efficient in the water and your stroke count will drop. However. This doesn't work for everyone. Some people just have to have a fast turnover. That's just how they perform better. Sorry if this is just "chaff" to some.

Not "chaff". Refreshing. Thanks for sharing.

In all of the time I get to spend around fast swimmers and listen to coaches talk them through the learning stages (and these are level 5 swim coaches of which oine is a former olympic team member and all of them have coached numerous past and present national caliber swimmers) I have NEVER heard stroke rate come up. I hear body position, I hear stroke efficiency, and I hear KICK!!!!! being drilled constantly.......but I've never heard or seen any words or work on stroke rate.......and I notice a lot of different rates within a group of people who all swim really fast. I'm not buying stroke rate as important to fast swimming.

Truth. I've had the privilege to train under some of the biggest names in the sport of swimming, and counting strokes was almost non existent. It can be good to spot check from time to time, but other than that, we didn't do it. I can swim 2 completely different rates and achieve the same time in the pool. Conversely, I can swim the same rate and achieve 2 completely different times. The mechanics are the catalyst, not the rate. I've mentioned it before, but counting strokes is akin to golf. You don't go out and focus on shooting a 68. You go out and focus on your driving, short game, putting, etc and 68 is the result. Don't focus on swimming a rate, focus on the mechanics and note how the rate changes.

My Race Log

Coach

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by tjfry

Truth. I've had the privilege to train under some of the biggest names in the sport of swimming, and counting strokes was almost non existent. It can be good to spot check from time to time, but other than that, we didn't do it. I can swim 2 completely different rates and achieve the same time in the pool. Conversely, I can swim the same rate and achieve 2 completely different times. The mechanics are the catalyst, not the rate. I've mentioned it before, but counting strokes is akin to golf. You don't go out and focus on shooting a 68. You go out and focus on your driving, short game, putting, etc and 68 is the result. Don't focus on swimming a rate, focus on the mechanics and note how the rate changes.

Your skills are incredibly advanced...and it's because you have so much swim experience. What you describe is a fantastic practice set. when you have more variables, there are more ways to improve your training. It's no different than using "pool toys" to make training interesting and varied as well.

Edited by AdventureBear 2014-12-10 3:54 PM

My Race Log

Pro

15655

Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by tjfry Truth. I've had the privilege to train under some of the biggest names in the sport of swimming, and counting strokes was almost non existent. It can be good to spot check from time to time, but other than that, we didn't do it. I can swim 2 completely different rates and achieve the same time in the pool. Conversely, I can swim the same rate and achieve 2 completely different times. The mechanics are the catalyst, not the rate. I've mentioned it before, but counting strokes is akin to golf. You don't go out and focus on shooting a 68. You go out and focus on your driving, short game, putting, etc and 68 is the result. Don't focus on swimming a rate, focus on the mechanics and note how the rate changes.

Your skills are incredibly advanced...and it's because you have so much swim experience. What you describe is a fantastic practice set. when you have more variables, there are more ways to improve your training. It's no different than using "pool toys" to make training interesting and varied as well.

AB - you know I respect your opinion, so let me ask you.......why do we not teach adult onset swimmers the same way we teach kids? Why don't we start with floating on your back, learning to press on the water? And then the same when on your front? Why do we completely neglect the development of a good kick? Why do we not teach the other strokes in order to learn feel for the water? Why do we not push dolphin kicks which builds a huge swim core? I guess I could go on and on. Is it time? Is it a rush to hurry up and be able to "finish the 'race'"? Why can kids learn to swim but most adults can't (I'm talking about fast swimming). I took a 6'1" 13 year old boy (so no longer really a kids body) to the best coaches I could find who started him from scratch. In 3 years his 100 time went from 2:00 to :48. His 1000 from "I can't do that" to 10:06. Obviously, he still has work to do before he is truly "fast".....but it all builds from a foundation to more advanced workouts....and still not a word about stroke rate. I did the same thing with my daughter.......she had no swim background, but she went through the same program starting at 12......it's safe to say she couldn't swim....she just wanted to be a "triathlete". In 2 years she swims a 1:04 100 and a 6:10 500. (she has lately decided she doesn't want to do triathlon anymore because she doesn't enjoy the bike) Now she wants to concentrate on swimming and I don't have any doubt she will attain her goals if she sticks to the program. What is it about adults that are different than "kids". I put it in quotes because at 14 she is 5'10 and 140......not exactly a "kids" body. The coaches and programs I took them to had no problem making them start from zero........why don't we do that with adults? Are they unwilling? Are the programs unavailable?

I swam masters.....and I still suck. I watch adults all the time thrashing the water at the Y where I swim.....they are horrible even wen they think their 1:45 100 is "fast".

My guess is true "learn to swim fast" adult club-like programs are not available.....so everybody settles for whatever they can get? The best we can do is masters swimming? TI? I guess I'm asking why we can't teach adults to swim.

Edited by Left Brain 2014-12-10 6:15 PM

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Swim stroke rate (Page 2)

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