Swim - Pull width (Page 2)

Originally posted by DarkSpeedWorks He's not gliding per se, but, yes, his hand is out in front of his body for a long time. And that is something you should also be trying to do. Doing this, at first, decreases strokes per pool length (low stroke counts are an almost a universal characteristic of fast distance swimmers). This is because this technique reduces drag. Soon after, your decrease of strokes per length changes to an increase in swim efficiency and overall swim speed. So how/why is Sun Yang not gliding? Well, while his leading hand is essentially still and extended in front of this body (which reduces his drag a lot), his following hand is still moving fast and hard. It is finishing up the pull and then it quickly recovers about the water. As that 'following' hand gets near the front of his body, his leading hand finally leaves its extended position and starts its own pull cycle. Rinse. Repeat. That's why it appears that he is gliding, but is actually not. But he still stays in a long extended position for quite a while in every single stroke. Yes, you can have your cake and eat it too. And this 'cake' will help you swim fast, lots faster.

Originally posted by DarkSpeedWorks He's not gliding per se, but, yes, his hand is out in front of his body for a long time. And that is something you should also be trying to do. Doing this, at first, decreases strokes per pool length (low stroke counts are an almost a universal characteristic of fast distance swimmers). This is because this technique reduces drag. Soon after, your decrease of strokes per length changes to an increase in swim efficiency and overall swim speed. So how/why is Sun Yang not gliding? Well, while his leading hand is essentially still and extended in front of this body (which reduces his drag a lot), his following hand is still moving fast and hard. It is finishing up the pull and then it quickly recovers about the water. As that 'following' hand gets near the front of his body, his leading hand finally leaves its extended position and starts its own pull cycle. Rinse. Repeat. That's why it appears that he is gliding, but is actually not. But he still stays in a long extended position for quite a while in every single stroke. Yes, you can have your cake and eat it too. And this 'cake' will help you swim fast, lots faster.

Originally posted by tjfry

 

 

To add to above, if you watch closely the center video of him, his arms straightens but then his shoulder rolls and then the shoulder further extends. As soon as he has fully extended he immediately pulls. So there's no lag time, it just looks that way b/c he is getting such great reach on each pull. Again, to add to the theme of the thread, it's a classic characteristic of a good swimmer...that almost hyper-extended reach out in front. You don't see that much in the tri world, and often the response is just 'pick up the tempo" to offset the poor reach.

Originally posted by Lock_N_Load
Great thread. This is actually fairly eye-opening to me. I gave up on reach type drills a long time ago but I think I'm going to incorporate these in again together with EVF pull. I think the trick is going to be making sure that I reach out far without over-rotating every stroke. This was part of the reason I stopped worrying so much about strokes per length. I felt it really was causing to over-rotate and the gains in speed were marginal. But now that my stroke and stroke-rate are better it may be time to incorporate stroke reach again. Again, great stuff on this thread.

Originally posted by tjfry

 

 

To add to above, if you watch closely the center video of him, his arms straightens but then his shoulder rolls and then the shoulder further extends. As soon as he has fully extended he immediately pulls. So there's no lag time, it just looks that way b/c he is getting such great reach on each pull. Again, to add to the theme of the thread, it's a classic characteristic of a good swimmer...that almost hyper-extended reach out in front. You don't see that much in the tri world, and often the response is just 'pick up the tempo" to offset the poor reach.

Originally posted by DarkSpeedWorks Of course not. But lots of good research has been done on this. Including research that took into account body size. So, among swimmers of equal height, low stroke counts are an almost a universal characteristic of fast distance swimmers. Is it correlation? Is it causation? Yes. Is getting your stroke count lower (than it is right now) a good goal for most distance freestylers? A goal that will result in faster swimming? Yes.

Originally posted by DarkSpeedWorks You don't want to go crazy with OVER extending. But you do want to FULLY extend. But more than that, you want your arm to spend some time out there, fully extended. No, not fully extended and "gliding". But fully extended with your other arm pushing like the dickens. And with your other arm recovering. Of course, when I say "spend some time out there", this is all in tiny bits of time, and this is all relative. What you DON'T want to do is, fully extend and then IMMEDIATELY begin your pull. Instead, fully extend, let your other arm finish pulling, let your other arm even begin its above water recovery, and then take your extended arm and start its pull. Don't give up. Think. And learn. Greg @ dsw

Originally posted by tjfry

 

I would actually disagree with you here. Hanging from a bar, stretching the shoulders against a wall, etc to get the shoulders to further their reach has been a not uncommon activity in my swim life.

Originally posted by braciole

Thanks for posting that video. I like the side view where you can really see his arm "hitch" at the elbow as the palm and forearm drop down to pull. I'm trying to learn those things now and this video helped me visualize in the pool yesterday (experts please speak up if that is the part of that guy's stroke that people can get hurt trying to emulate).

I don't have anything to offer OP but I have a few questions based on responses above.

Is there consensus that you should leave your arm out there extended (gliding a bit) and not start the pull immediately once you reach extension? Or is that debated?

What is EVF?

Originally posted by triosaurus

So, may I ask a further question on this? The more flexibility / reach one is capable of, the greater the range of motion through which power can be exerted, and presumably a 'better' more powerful/efficient swim pull. Correct? ( assuming the generally accepted lay person meanings for the previous terms...)

So, the question - Is a lack of strength then an issue? By this, I mean the inability to apply power throughout the complete range of motion. Or is this a non-issue?

Surely, I am 'stronger' than the 11-yr olds who motor past me, leaving me awash in a wake of embarrassment

Seriously, thanks to all for the great info

Originally posted by braciole

Thanks for posting that video. I like the side view where you can really see his arm "hitch" at the elbow as the palm and forearm drop down to pull. I'm trying to learn those things now and this video helped me visualize in the pool yesterday (experts please speak up if that is the part of that guy's stroke that people can get hurt trying to emulate).

I don't have anything to offer OP but I have a few questions based on responses above.

Is there consensus that you should leave your arm out there extended (gliding a bit) and not start the pull immediately once you reach extension? Or is that debated?

What is EVF?

Originally posted by DarkSpeedWorks



Very generally, the longer time and distance you can apply propulsive force to the water, the better.

You are likely far stronger than the 11 year olds. And you likely create far more propulsive force than they do to. But their advantage is that they create HUGELY less drag than you.

Yes, you should improve your propulsion. But that will only get you so far.
But make big reductions to your drag, and then you will fly in the water.
That is the key for 95% of adult swimmers.

Originally posted by mike761

You can only reduce your drag so much, at which point you need to increase your propulsion.

Originally posted by DarkSpeedWorks


True.

But in my experience teaching many adult onset swimmers, most triathletes are doing OK with propulsion. But many of them have big, big problems with drag.

Propulsion is important too, of course. But, like you say, you can only increase propulsion so much.

While drag is easy to fix rapidly (with good instruction), and it has immediate and big payoffs.

Originally posted by mike761 It becomes very much like power to weight ratios on a bike when going uphill. (equate drag to weight) The 11 yr girl has very little drag therefore does not require as much strength to go fast. You can only reduce your drag so much, at which point you need to increase your propulsion. Notice I did not say strength. Strength is one part of that propulsion. So yes at some point strength can be a limiting factor, Michael Phelps is not exactly a 98lb weakling right? For most triathletes they are limited by form and technique.

Originally posted by tjfry

 

The young swimmer also possesses more specific strength than you, relatively. Meaning that while you are stronger, they will apply a much larger percentage to the specific movement needed to swim, where the adult will waste tons of energy or strength with a sloppy pull.

Also remember, in swimming propulsion also reduces drag, which is unique relative to biking and running. So reduction in drag is good (a la TI), but propulsion can often help reduce drag as well.

Originally posted by tjfry

 

 

To add to above, if you watch closely the center video of him, his arms straightens but then his shoulder rolls and then the shoulder further extends. As soon as he has fully extended he immediately pulls. So there's no lag time, it just looks that way b/c he is getting such great reach on each pull. Again, to add to the theme of the thread, it's a classic characteristic of a good swimmer...that almost hyper-extended reach out in front. You don't see that much in the tri world, and often the response is just 'pick up the tempo" to offset the poor reach.

Originally posted by Left Brain

I think this is excellent.  Watch this video from last week's Jr. Elite race in Sarasota.  The front kids can hold their own in any pro field.  The reach is evident.  Start watching at about 25 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOD50RLE-YA&feature=youtu.be

Originally posted by dmiller5

Could you elaborate on what is "excellent?"

Originally posted by Left Brain

What I bolded.  jtfry is right as usual with regard to triathlon swimmers.  The good swimmers all concentrate on that long reach, but the first thing most triathlon coaches want to do is increase the tempo to compensate for poor reach in people without good swim technique.  My kid concentrates on swimming during the winter and he has great coaches.  He swims his best times by the end of the short course season.  Then he works mostly with tri coaches while his swim team moves to long course season.  It's funny, because when he goes back to his club to practice after being away from them for a month or so he sounds like an eggbeater in the water compared to the other kids.  It's because his tri coaches are beating it into him to increase his stroke rate.  It's not as bad now because that long reach has been engrained deeper into his technique and when he gets pushed to increase his turnover he doesn't lose the reach as badly.....but he still sounds like he is thrashing the water compared to the other swim club kids when he gets in the pool.  If you look at most of the kids in the front of that pack.....they are extending well.....and swimming faster.  The bottom line in this?  Learn to swim.

Originally posted by dmiller5

Interesting, my deck coach  (tri) is always on about increased stroke rate.  The best swimmer I know is always on about getting another couple inches on my reach.