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Swim - Pull width
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 2015-03-20 2:28 PM |
Extreme Veteran  1175    Langley, BC, 'Wet Coast' Canada |  Subject: Swim - Pull widthGahh ... another swim pull question. Perhaps this ought to be sub-titled "How not to pull for idiots"  Ok, I realize it has likely been covered a tri-zillion times (see what I did there? I read recently in several swim threads that a wide pull is encouraged - hands at 10 and 2. Not to cross the body mid-line at any time. The pull should be wide and not under the body. So my question is, are we not trying to get as much reach out front as is mechanically possible? Would the hands entering more nearly 12 o'clock (and not crossing the body mid-line) not offer this extra reach? And, as the body rotates does the pulling hand, arm/elbow bent as close to 90*, not naturally seem to come to pull along the body mid-line/belly to hip ...? Again, my apologies for asking yet another time what has likely been covered ad nauseam, but I am trying to be mindful while swimming. Watching a video seems fine, but I think I may be one who needs a couple repeatable verbal cues i can focus on while in the pool... |
| 2015-03-20 3:17 PM in reply to: triosaurus |
Member 622 Franklin, TN | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width This is how you want to pull...at least in my mind it is. Arm extension in front of shoulder with pull coming down the side to slightly under the body line. Sun Yang... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o
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| 2015-03-20 3:39 PM in reply to: JoelO |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Don't try to imitate sun yang, you'll hurt yourself. Extend in front of your shoulder. |
| 2015-03-20 4:22 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Member 622 Franklin, TN | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Not sure what you mean. Didn't I just say the same thing...extend in front of your shoulder. |
| 2015-03-20 4:24 PM in reply to: JoelO |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Sun Yang is a one in 7 billion swimmer, his technique, while incredible for him, isn't necessarily something that someone should replicate. |
| 2015-03-20 5:12 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width ok but what about it would cause injury? |
| 2015-03-20 6:55 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width most people's shoulders don't move that way |
| 2015-03-20 8:35 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Official BT Coach 18500 Indianapolis, Indiana Gold member | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Originally posted by dmiller5 most people's shoulders don't move that way Sorry, don't see what he is doing that most people cannot do - well, except for maybe the doping thing (see below). He is not exhibiting any extraordinary shoulder flexibility. Aside from the uneven body rotation and the uneven kick, I don't see anything Sun Yang is doing that the average age group triathlete would not be well served by emulating. That said, I am not so sure that Sun Yang is the best role model as his name is increasingly being mentioned in discussions about doping. |
| 2015-03-20 8:51 PM in reply to: #5102282 |
Member 622 Franklin, TN | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Your right, there are several great swimmers out there whose form would be good to emulate I.e. Grant Hackett, Katie Ledecky, Ian Thorpe...I just linked the Sun Yang video since it was easy to study. |
| 2015-03-20 9:12 PM in reply to: JoelO |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width My guess is that the great swimmers look a lot more similar underwater than above water.....all have a powerful, efficient pull. Also, what works for them may be unique to their body type or strength profile. For a laugh, I just compared Sun Yang, Katy Ledecky, and Janet Evans. (I'm been accused by several coaches of swimming like the latter. I don't lift my head that much when I breathe, but I do have a similar windmill/slap the water/ high stroke rate thing going on when I swim distances.) Unlike her, I don't have any world records, but I did swim 1500m in 21 minutes and change in my teens, which is a lot faster than most triathletes, using that style. My body build is much more similar to her than Katy or (duh!) Sun Yang, so maybe that's just what happens to work for us. That being said, I've always understood that your arms are supposed to go in around 11 and 1 o'clock, and going too narrow might lead to over-rotation (which would be inefficient for anybody) and too wide is a waste of energy as you'd be pushing the water in the wrong direction. |
| 2015-03-20 10:03 PM in reply to: JoelO |
Official BT Coach 18500 Indianapolis, Indiana Gold member | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Originally posted by JoelO Your right, there are several great swimmers out there whose form would be good to emulate I.e. Grant Hackett, Katie Ledecky, Ian Thorpe...I just linked the Sun Yang video since it was easy to study. I agree, that is one of the best videos I have seen. You can see everything at the same time and in sync! |
| 2015-03-20 10:09 PM in reply to: Hot Runner |
Official BT Coach 18500 Indianapolis, Indiana Gold member | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Originally posted by Hot Runner My guess is that the great swimmers look a lot more similar underwater than above water.....all have a powerful, efficient pull. And it starts with a really good catch. If anyone wants to emulate anything, copy the first part of his underwater movement. He drops his palm to a vertical position at the catch the quickly establishes a high elbow position through the pull. You want power and speed in your pull? Study his underwater movement and do that. And you are right. If you looked at all of the really fast freestyle swimmers, they would look almost identical underwater. |
| 2015-03-21 9:10 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
| 538 Brooklyn, New York | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Originally posted by dmiller5 Sun Yang is a one in 7 billion swimmer, his technique, while incredible for him, isn't necessarily something that someone should replicate. Especially considering he completely stops his kick |
| 2015-03-21 12:23 PM in reply to: k9car363 |
| 1660 | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Originally posted by k9car363 Originally posted by Hot Runner My guess is that the great swimmers look a lot more similar underwater than above water.....all have a powerful, efficient pull. And it starts with a really good catch. If anyone wants to emulate anything, copy the first part of his underwater movement. He drops his palm to a vertical position at the catch the quickly establishes a high elbow position through the pull. You want power and speed in your pull? Study his underwater movement and do that. And you are right. If you looked at all of the really fast freestyle swimmers, they would look almost identical underwater.
Sun Yang's technique is awesome, but honestly, his crazy EVF is literally impossible for 99.9% of triathletes. You need like megavolume and megatalent to pull that off. But trying to approach it is def a goal, even if you don't nail it.. |
| 2015-03-21 2:19 PM in reply to: triosaurus |
Extreme Veteran 717 Chicago, USA | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width I read recently in several swim threads that a wide pull is encouraged - hands at 10 and 2. Not to cross the body mid-line at any time. The pull should be wide and not under the body. So my question is, are we not trying to get as much reach out front as is mechanically possible? Would the hands entering more nearly 12 o'clock (and not crossing the body mid-line) not offer this extra reach? And, as the body rotates does the pulling hand, arm/elbow bent as close to 90*, not naturally seem to come to pull along the body mid-line/belly to hip ...? Some good questions. Hand entry should be essentially in front of the shoulder. However, oddly, if this is done right, to most beginners, it feels like your hand is entering really really wide, far wider than your shoulders. Yes, you should be getting as much reach as possible. But don't go too crazy on this. Because FAR FAR more important is that you leave your arm extended out there for a while. The more time you can spend extended, the less drag your body will have. No, you will not get more reach if your arms are at 12 o'clock. Having your arms enter at 12 o'clock will get you to cross over in front of and under your body (not good at all). You do sort of want to pull down your body, the arm should be pulling down in a line or slight S-curve mostly aligned with your shoulder joint. You absolutely want to avoid crossing you body's midline. However, oddly, if this is done right, to most beginners, it feels like your arm is pulling out to the side of your body, not under your body. |
| 2015-03-21 7:09 PM in reply to: #5102339 |
Extreme Veteran 1648 | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width I love that you are questioning and thinking about this. Back in the day I used to spend hours on a bungee over a mirror playing with angles. I find a great drill for getting a feel for the pull is the fist drill- swim with your hands in fists. Try and feel how much water you can move with your forearm and biceps (which have more surface area than your hand). Somehow for me adding hands in made it harder to see the impact of adjustments til it came to fine tuning them. |
| 2015-03-22 8:57 AM in reply to: triosaurus |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width The wider your pull the flatter your stroke. The flatter your stroke, the better chance for shoulder injury. |
| 2015-03-22 11:29 PM in reply to: tjfry |
Extreme Veteran 1175 Langley, BC, 'Wet Coast' Canada | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width |
| 2015-03-23 7:32 AM in reply to: TJHammer |
| 553 St Catharines, Ontario | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Originally posted by TJHammer Originally posted by dmiller5 Sun Yang is a one in 7 billion swimmer, his technique, while incredible for him, isn't necessarily something that someone should replicate. Especially considering he completely stops his kick Hey, Sun Yang and I have a very similar kick. [Comparison Ends] |
| 2015-03-24 9:27 AM in reply to: badmo77a |
| Member 91 Baltimore, MD | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width I watched that Sun Yang video. He only breathes on one side. I bet he does flip turns too. Open water swimming triathletes can learn nothing from him. |
| 2015-03-24 11:08 AM in reply to: k9car363 |
Member 241 | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Originally posted by k9car363 Originally posted by Hot Runner My guess is that the great swimmers look a lot more similar underwater than above water.....all have a powerful, efficient pull. And it starts with a really good catch. If anyone wants to emulate anything, copy the first part of his underwater movement. He drops his palm to a vertical position at the catch the quickly establishes a high elbow position through the pull. You want power and speed in your pull? Study his underwater movement and do that. And you are right. If you looked at all of the really fast freestyle swimmers, they would look almost identical underwater. OK, I'm confused. One change I have made to my stroke that has yielded faster times for me is the near-elimination of the "glide" at the front of the stroke. Sun Yang's reach looks like it lingers up front forever yet he is booking it. Would someone for the love of all that's holy explain where his propulsive power comes from? It doesn't even look like his stroke rate is all that fast. The only thing I can guess is that it's all coming from the force of each individual pull. Would his time be faster if he eliminated the glide time up front? |
| 2015-03-24 11:18 AM in reply to: Lock_N_Load |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Originally posted by Lock_N_Load Originally posted by k9car363 OK, I'm confused. One change I have made to my stroke that has yielded faster times for me is the near-elimination of the "glide" at the front of the stroke. Sun Yang's reach looks like it lingers up front forever yet he is booking it. Would someone for the love of all that's holy explain where his propulsive power comes from? It doesn't even look like his stroke rate is all that fast. The only thing I can guess is that it's all coming from the force of each individual pull. Would his time be faster if he eliminated the glide time up front? Originally posted by Hot Runner My guess is that the great swimmers look a lot more similar underwater than above water.....all have a powerful, efficient pull. And it starts with a really good catch. If anyone wants to emulate anything, copy the first part of his underwater movement. He drops his palm to a vertical position at the catch the quickly establishes a high elbow position through the pull. You want power and speed in your pull? Study his underwater movement and do that. And you are right. If you looked at all of the really fast freestyle swimmers, they would look almost identical underwater. This is why we don't emulate sun yang. His power comes from PED's, incredible genetics, and a position/EVF that none of us can emulate. |
| 2015-03-24 11:46 AM in reply to: Lock_N_Load |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Originally posted by Lock_N_Load Originally posted by k9car363 OK, I'm confused. One change I have made to my stroke that has yielded faster times for me is the near-elimination of the "glide" at the front of the stroke. Sun Yang's reach looks like it lingers up front forever yet he is booking it. Would someone for the love of all that's holy explain where his propulsive power comes from? It doesn't even look like his stroke rate is all that fast. The only thing I can guess is that it's all coming from the force of each individual pull. Would his time be faster if he eliminated the glide time up front? Originally posted by Hot Runner My guess is that the great swimmers look a lot more similar underwater than above water.....all have a powerful, efficient pull. And it starts with a really good catch. If anyone wants to emulate anything, copy the first part of his underwater movement. He drops his palm to a vertical position at the catch the quickly establishes a high elbow position through the pull. You want power and speed in your pull? Study his underwater movement and do that. And you are right. If you looked at all of the really fast freestyle swimmers, they would look almost identical underwater. He's not really gliding, he's completing his rotation and extension. Watch his upper body, not his hands. |
| 2015-03-24 1:05 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Member 241 | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by Lock_N_Load Originally posted by k9car363 OK, I'm confused. One change I have made to my stroke that has yielded faster times for me is the near-elimination of the "glide" at the front of the stroke. Sun Yang's reach looks like it lingers up front forever yet he is booking it. Would someone for the love of all that's holy explain where his propulsive power comes from? It doesn't even look like his stroke rate is all that fast. The only thing I can guess is that it's all coming from the force of each individual pull. Would his time be faster if he eliminated the glide time up front? Originally posted by Hot Runner My guess is that the great swimmers look a lot more similar underwater than above water.....all have a powerful, efficient pull. And it starts with a really good catch. If anyone wants to emulate anything, copy the first part of his underwater movement. He drops his palm to a vertical position at the catch the quickly establishes a high elbow position through the pull. You want power and speed in your pull? Study his underwater movement and do that. And you are right. If you looked at all of the really fast freestyle swimmers, they would look almost identical underwater. He's not really gliding, he's completing his rotation and extension. Watch his upper body, not his hands. I guess I don't see this in the video. It looks like he completes the rotation and holds it there until the other hand enters at which point he does a massive EVF pull. So, would he be going faster if instead of holding that reach he initiated the pull earlier? Maybe I'm not seeing right and he really hasn't completed the reach and I'm seeing it as gliding. It really looks like a fairly pronounced TI-like glide to me. |
| 2015-03-24 1:09 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 717 Chicago, USA | Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width Originally posted by Lock_N_Load OK, I'm confused. One change I have made to my stroke that has yielded faster times for me is the near-elimination of the "glide" at the front of the stroke. Sun Yang's reach looks like it lingers up front forever yet he is booking it. Would someone for the love of all that's holy explain where his propulsive power comes from? It doesn't even look like his stroke rate is all that fast. The only thing I can guess is that it's all coming from the force of each individual pull. Would his time be faster if he eliminated the glide time up front? He's not gliding per se, but, yes, his hand is out in front of his body for a long time. And that is something you should also be trying to do. Doing this, at first, decreases strokes per pool length (low stroke counts are an almost a universal characteristic of fast distance swimmers). This is because this technique reduces drag. Soon after, your decrease of strokes per length changes to an increase in swim efficiency and overall swim speed. So how/why is Sun Yang not gliding? Well, while his leading hand is essentially still and extended in front of this body (which reduces his drag a lot), his following hand is still moving fast and hard. It is finishing up the pull and then it quickly recovers about the water. As that 'following' hand gets near the front of his body, his leading hand finally leaves its extended position and starts its own pull cycle. Rinse. Repeat. That's why it appears that he is gliding, but is actually not. But he still stays in a long extended position for quite a while in every single stroke. Yes, you can have your cake and eat it too. And this 'cake' will help you swim fast, lots faster. Edited by DarkSpeedWorks 2015-03-24 1:13 PM |
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