General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim issues Rss Feed  
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2015-04-19 3:34 PM


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nashville, Tennessee
Subject: Swim issues
How should I approach swim training? I am a big time sinker. Here's my issue. The only way for me to have good form is to swim faster. I have to swim fairly fast in order to keep my body/legs high. Which of course in turn makes me tired faster. If I want to swim 800 yds consecutively I have to swim extremely slow, and as a result very poor form. If I swim hard I would be around 1:40/100 yds.(goin all out) If I'm swimming 600 or more consecutively, I have to go about 2:05/100yds. I've done long races but ive had a wetsuit. Should I just start doing sets of 50 or 100 at fairly fast paces and just see if I'm endurance builds up at that pace?


2015-04-19 3:54 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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409
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Durham, North Carolina
Subject: RE: Swim issues
You have some form issues. You can try post a video to get help or buy swim lessons. I bought swim lessons and it was the best "tri" money that I've spent so far. I went from about 1:45 to 1:30 pace, but its 100% under my control now which I love. I use to be able to so 1:45/100 comfortably, but I couldn't go any faster or slower. If I went faster I just tried harder, but my pace would stay the same. If I tried to go slower I would just sink and end up exerting more effort for a slower pace.

I think short sets are very helpful. I was told its better for you to do sets of 25, 50 or 100's with short (10 second-ish) rests with good form and focusing on whatever you need to practice rather than long sloppy 500 yard sets.
2015-04-19 4:05 PM
in reply to: #5109266


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Swim issues
Sounds good. I'm gonna try that for a while
2015-04-19 9:40 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2


471
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Subject: RE: Swim issues
Originally posted by mchadcota2

How should I approach swim training? I am a big time sinker. Here's my issue. The only way for me to have good form is to swim faster. I have to swim fairly fast in order to keep my body/legs high.


I used to be a sinker. There are a number of things you can do to reduce how much your body/legs sink.

- head down, chin on chest
- force your bum up, you'll feel it in your stomach muscles
- swim like someones imaginary hand is on your head pushing it down or like a weight is attached to your head, almost like you're trying to swim to the bottom of the pool.

All this will force your upper body down and your bottom half/legs will rise. Practise this with a kick board. Most people do kickpad drills with their head way out the water and their legs drop. So do this, then practise the above with the kickboard, you can put your chin on your chest and look down at your legs underwater and you should see your legs rise, you'll also feel your feet kicking on the surface. This is a good exercise in demonstrating the importance of correct head position in regards to body position.
2015-04-20 9:15 AM
in reply to: zedzded


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Swim issues
Awesome! I will try that kickboard exercise. Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one that has this problem. I see new triathletes start swimming and seem to have no problem swimming several hundred yards. I want to say "ITS NOT FAIR! YOU FLOAT!" Most of the time I feel like I'm in a hurry to get a breath before my head is back underwater and if I was a floater, taking a breath would never be a difficult task. I have a friend who is a good swimmer and never trains for the swim but is always faster than me. He used to never understand why I was always so nervous about the swim. Then we compared each others buoyancy in the pool and he was baffled. My legs go straight to the bottom while his float nicely at the top. He can lay flat with his arms outstretched and floats nicely at the top while I go straight to the bottom. And that's with a chest full of air. And we are fairly similar builds. Now he understands why I get so nervous. One big difference, if he gets tired, he floats. If I get tired, I drown. Ok sorry for rambling.
2015-04-20 10:29 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Swim issues

Originally posted by mchadcota2 Awesome! I will try that kickboard exercise. Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one that has this problem. I see new triathletes start swimming and seem to have no problem swimming several hundred yards. I want to say "ITS NOT FAIR! YOU FLOAT!" Most of the time I feel like I'm in a hurry to get a breath before my head is back underwater and if I was a floater, taking a breath would never be a difficult task. I have a friend who is a good swimmer and never trains for the swim but is always faster than me. He used to never understand why I was always so nervous about the swim. Then we compared each others buoyancy in the pool and he was baffled. My legs go straight to the bottom while his float nicely at the top. He can lay flat with his arms outstretched and floats nicely at the top while I go straight to the bottom. And that's with a chest full of air. And we are fairly similar builds. Now he understands why I get so nervous. One big difference, if he gets tired, he floats. If I get tired, I drown. Ok sorry for rambling.

You aren't engaging your core properly.  You need to support your legs/hips with your chest if that makes any sense. 



2015-04-20 10:52 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Exton, PA
Subject: RE: Swim issues

Your form is off that's why you sink when swimming.

When I float I am practically vertical in the water, this does not effect my swimming.

COB(center of buoyancy) is the chest- forcing your head down will force you feet up. You head is most likely not down as far as you think. You most likely also bend your knees when kicking, when you do this it forces a rearward and downward propulsion- hence your feet sink.

Learn a prone position float first- push off the wall, face in the water, arms up, and blowing bubbles. You should be able to go about 10 yards . Once you have that add your kick in, you should be able to go until you run out of air.

2015-04-20 11:33 AM
in reply to: #5109271


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Swim issues
You say when you float you are basically vertical? If I am vertical my feet are on the bottom of the pool. Maybe I'll try to post a video n get some tips. I have done the pushing chest n head down in the water but then that means I have to come further up in order to get a breath. I DO bend at knees when I kick so that really needs to be worked on.
2015-04-20 11:34 AM
in reply to: #5109271

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Subject: RE: Swim issues
Okay just to be clear what others are saying: nobody has legs that float. Even the fastest swimmer if they go into the water face down and just hang out floating their legs will sink to the bottom.

2015-04-20 11:52 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Swim issues
Let me clarify. If I were to float on my back without moving, my feet would sink until I was practically vertical in the water. Most people would classify me as a sinker, yet this has no effect on my ability to swim. Many people who are physically fit will tend to sink.

If you realize you bend your knees when you swim, it's probably worse than you think.

When you turn your head to the side the only thing you need to do is breath air in, your whole face does not need to come out to do that. Typically I only have about half of my mouth above water when breathing (years on swim teams). If you watch other people without great form swim, you will notice that when they breath they almost instinctively bring there legs(feet) up as if they are going to put a foot down. This is the time to really pay attention to your legs being straight.

When I taught swim lessons, I always had people perfect kicking with a kick board out in front of them and breathing to the side. It allows you to concentrate on body position, kicking and breathing without worrying about your catch and pull. When I say perfect, I mean people spend weeks on this before trying to add the arms. Once you have the body position, kick , and breathing down your arms are not that hard.
2015-04-20 2:39 PM
in reply to: mike761


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Swim issues
So I just got done with a quick swim and worked on a few things. I have a few questions/comments. When I push off side, take deep breath and stretch out superman style, its a matter of a couple of seconds before my legs drop to bottom and chest follows. Are you saying this is normal and that I need to work on using my core to hold my legs up somehow?

I was working on keeping my legs up and pretending to "have a rod extending through my head to my feet". My question is, trying to keep my legs up, engaging my core, etc, takes a lot of effort for me and therefore tires me out. But having perfect form is supposed to make swimming more effortless, right? So is this normal for it to be more difficult at first and I just need to really work on this form until it becomes easier?

Last thing. My last few laps, I was focusing on my breathing. I think I tend to want my face out of the water to make sure I get a good breath. But my last couple of laps, I decided to just barely turn my head and almost not even pay attention to whether my mouth was out of the water or not, just trust that it would be in the right place. And for the most part it was. I think I need to work on not trying to get my face out of the water, and even if I get a few mouths full of water, just keep doing the same thing.

You guys are really helping with your input so I really appreciate it.


2015-04-20 4:02 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2


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Subject: RE: Swim issues

 

You don't have to be so buoyant that you're like a natural life preserver to swim well. Even the densest, most muscled men with the biggest legs can swim well if they learn the correct body position and balance. 

 

You should do some float-type drills, where you lie flat out in the water, face down, arms stretched out forward, and minimally kick. Your goal isn't to go forward - your goal is to feel that flat position in the water. If you are getting tired from doing it, you're doing it wrong - it takes minimal energy. Turn your head barely to the side to get a breath - if you can do it with half your mouth in the water and one goggle still in the water, that's good.

 

After you get the floating mostly down (won't take too long), I'd actually recommend doing some pull buoy work with zero kicking. The reason for this is that you are almost certainly wasting energy with your kick - your kick is being used to keep your legs up, not to propel yourself forward, which is why you're getting so tired. Learn to do pulls with a pull buoy and then you can slowly re-add your kick - I think you'll be surprised how hard the coordination will be since you will almost certainly have a significant stroke error that requires you to kick significantly to offset it. 

 

Basically, you need to learn body position, and also simultaneously break your dependence on using your kicking to keep your legs up. 

2015-04-20 8:50 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2


471
1001001001002525
Subject: RE: Swim issues
Originally posted by mchadcota2

I was working on keeping my legs up and pretending to "have a rod extending through my head to my feet". My question is, trying to keep my legs up, engaging my core, etc, takes a lot of effort for me and therefore tires me out. But having perfect form is supposed to make swimming more effortless, right? So is this normal for it to be more difficult at first and I just need to really work on this form until it becomes easier?


I've been working on my body position for a good 6 months and it's still not perfect and I'm a FOP swimmer. It will take time to fix, because there are probably other issues with your stroke as well that possibly contribute to your poor body position. Body position (IMO) is one of the hardest things to fix. Also some of the things I and others have suggested, might not feel right straight away, they may feel awkward and you may in fact go slower to start with. Perhaps do a video and we can give you some more tips and offer advice.

Originally posted by mchadcota2
Last thing. My last few laps, I was focusing on my breathing. I think I tend to want my face out of the water to make sure I get a good breath. But my last couple of laps, I decided to just barely turn my head and almost not even pay attention to whether my mouth was out of the water or not, just trust that it would be in the right place. And for the most part it was. I think I need to work on not trying to get my face out of the water, and even if I get a few mouths full of water, just keep doing the same thing.

You guys are really helping with your input so I really appreciate it.



You want to keep one goggle submerged when your breathe and look back down your body, under your armpit, not the roof. Ensure you breathe out underwater. If you pull your face right out the water, your body over-rotates and your legs do a scissor kick.
2015-04-21 8:42 AM
in reply to: #5109454


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Swim issues
Gotcha. Thanks for your help. Since body position takes a while to learn n takes so much practice, why would you guess some people who are new to swimming have no problems swimming fairly long distance and I've been swimming for a few years and still don't have it right. Does it just come natural to some people or does the natural buoyancy really help? For example I know guys who have started tris and after they go swim 5-6 times they can swim thousands of yards. I can work up to where I can do 1000 yds consecutively, but if I take a few months off, I can't do more than 100 yds consecutively. So some of you say the buoyancy doesn't really effect how good they can swim, but wouldn't u say it makes a big difference for beginners?
2015-04-21 11:12 AM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: Swim issues

Originally posted by mchadcota2 Gotcha. Thanks for your help. Since body position takes a while to learn n takes so much practice, why would you guess some people who are new to swimming have no problems swimming fairly long distance and I've been swimming for a few years and still don't have it right. Does it just come natural to some people or does the natural buoyancy really help? For example I know guys who have started tris and after they go swim 5-6 times they can swim thousands of yards. I can work up to where I can do 1000 yds consecutively, but if I take a few months off, I can't do more than 100 yds consecutively. So some of you say the buoyancy doesn't really effect how good they can swim, but wouldn't u say it makes a big difference for beginners?

 

Buoyancy helps, but not as much as you think. It's best that you just assume that you are fully buoyant enough given the right training, since that's the true reality of the situation. If it makes you feel any better, I'm a very lean male with 'thunderthighs', and am short, so I'm the epitome of someone who should 'sink like a rock' (if I exhale, I do!) But even with that limitation, I have no problems with the face-down float drills and swimming. 

 

If you ever want to see how much faster you can swim with added buoyancy, you can test it out with a pull buoy or wetsuit, both of which will add enough buoyancy to your lower half to not even kick for it to stay up. People often go faster, but it's typically no more than 5sec/100 if properly timed in a pool. It's not going to make you a 2x better swimmer, sorry.

 

And comparing yourself with others' curve of improvement is fraught with danger. Some people have a ton of talent, and some do not. I've seen the rare talented adult-onset swimmer literally go from 2:30/100 to 1:20/100 in open water racing in 6 months, whereas I can only hit 1:20/100 in a pool after years of hard adult-onset training. 



Edited by yazmaster 2015-04-21 11:14 AM
2015-04-21 11:14 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Swim issues
Originally posted by mchadcota2

Gotcha. Thanks for your help. Since body position takes a while to learn n takes so much practice, why would you guess some people who are new to swimming have no problems swimming fairly long distance and I've been swimming for a few years and still don't have it right. Does it just come natural to some people or does the natural buoyancy really help? For example I know guys who have started tris and after they go swim 5-6 times they can swim thousands of yards. I can work up to where I can do 1000 yds consecutively, but if I take a few months off, I can't do more than 100 yds consecutively. So some of you say the buoyancy doesn't really effect how good they can swim, but wouldn't u say it makes a big difference for beginners?


After teaching thousands of kids to swim, I can tell you that some picked up the body position quickly(or instantly) and others struggled to get there. I do not think it is a matter of coming natural, I believe it is a mental thing. The kids with no fear, the ones that were willing to sink straight to bottom and believed that I would yank them back up before they drowned were the ones that picked it up the fastest. The ones with a fear of the water were always the worst ones. I can see the mental block being there for adults because we will not put our trust into an instructor like a kid will.


Edited by mike761 2015-04-21 11:14 AM


2015-04-21 12:07 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Swim issues

I have bad shoulder flexibility, if I try to keep my hands straight out I front of my head my legs will sink.  If I let my hands drop so that they are 8-12 inches under water, below my head, I float with much better balance.  I also find that I can start the catch & roll process a lot easier from this position as it helps me to keep the elbows high and I'll generate more power with the stroke.

2015-04-21 2:19 PM
in reply to: yazmaster


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Swim issues
Originally posted by yazmaster

If you ever want to see how much faster you can swim with added buoyancy, you can test it out with a pull buoy or wetsuit, both of which will add enough buoyancy to your lower half to not even kick for it to stay up. People often go faster, but it's typically no more than 5sec/100 if properly timed in a pool. It's not going to make you a 2x better swimmer, sorry.

 

And comparing yourself with others' curve of improvement is fraught with danger. Some people have a ton of talent, and some do not. I've seen the rare talented adult-onset swimmer literally go from 2:30/100 to 1:20/100 in open water racing in 6 months, whereas I can only hit 1:20/100 in a pool after years of hard adult-onset training. 




Wetsuit makes all the difference in the world for me! I feel like I can swim all day in a wetsuit. Take it off and I can maybe swim 600 yds consecutively. I have done 1 full IM and 2 HIM but I will not do them if its not wetsuit legal because I will drown. It keeps me in just the right position and I float nicely with little to no effort.
2015-04-21 5:01 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2


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Subject: RE: Swim issues

Then the answer's pretty clear - you definitely have to work on body position without kicking! You should find swimming without a wetsuit much easier once you get this down. 

 

 

 

 

2015-04-21 5:37 PM
in reply to: #5109266


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Swim issues
So wait are you saying I should be able to keep my legs up without kicking? Cuz I can try to work on that if so.
2015-04-21 6:50 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2


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Subject: RE: Swim issues

You can keep your legs up with either no kick, or a minimal kick that is close to zero. 

 

See my prior post about the float drill and pull buoy no-kick pull swims. Those should be helpful. 



2015-04-21 6:50 PM
in reply to: #5109833


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Swim issues
Thank you! I will try
2015-04-22 6:59 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Swim issues

Originally posted by mchadcota2 Thank you! I will try
And I stated above about dropping you hands.  Take a look at this BT video, around the 31:40 mark the discussion about balance starts.  This was my 'ah-ha' moment where I understood what I was doing wrong. From there everything else came together nicely.

2015-04-22 4:24 PM
in reply to: Donto


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Swim issues
Thanks a lot for that video! I don't know if this is a common problem or not, but I have a really hard time keeping my wrist loose with hand down like he talks about in the video. I really feel like I rely on that hand to keep me up and keep my head high enough to get a breath. Whenever I relax that hand I feel like I'm gonna just sink. I know that's really bad. Has anybody else felt this way or is it just me? I guess the goal is to get to a point where your arms have nothing to do with your balance? Any input on that?
2015-04-22 4:36 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2


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Subject: RE: Swim issues
Lots of good stuff here and it should be said, there is no substitute for volume. Keep at it, even when it gets frustrating. If you put in the yards, you'll improve. Form and speed comes with time and practice.
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