swim faster in 17 days? sprint
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2015-05-20 10:25 PM |
4 | Subject: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Good evening. I'm a relatively non-serious newcomer to a sprint in 2 1/2 weeks with fairly solid running, decent biking, and very slow speed in water (1/2 mile in 24 minutes). Not a fitness issue and I've spent a decent amount of time in the pool (mostly a year ago). Definitely technique / naturalborn inefficiency. My girlfriend says minimize head / neck movement with breathing, kick faster / with smaller movements, and keep my arms in / scoop the water more, and maybe switch to alternating sides (breathe every 3 strokes). All good. Now assuming my fitness level is Olympian and I only need to drill until the race, what would you recommend? Other swimmers in the pool smoke me apparently without effort which doesnt make sense with my fitness level. Thanks in advance. Stuart, M, 49, Portland Oregon |
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2015-05-20 11:23 PM in reply to: cast__iron |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Private coach every other day until the race. |
2015-05-20 11:34 PM in reply to: 0 |
928 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint It's pretty common for people starting out swimming to be much slower relative to their bike or run fitness, because swimming is so much about technique. But it's also about specific muscular endurance that you don't train with running and cycling. Like running and cycling, more swim mileage will eventually make you faster. Competitive swimmers do as much mileage in one day as many triathletes do in a week. There may be something obvious in your technique that when corrected will make you faster quickly. But it is unlikely to happen that quickly such that you'll see a huge change before your race. Get some coaching to see what you correct, but eventually you'll be doing more mileage. One thing you could try that helped me was making sure I was rotating my body with each breath (rather than rotating my head). If you do "fists" drill it will help reinforce this rotation. Also make sure you aren't "running your legs" in a cycling motion, which will actually serve to move you backwards instead of forwards. Feet should be like floppy flippers and most of the energy should come from your hips. Edited by jennifer_runs 2015-05-20 11:39 PM |
2015-05-21 1:04 AM in reply to: jennifer_runs |
Extreme Veteran 1332 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Originally posted by jennifer_runs Competitive swimmers do as much mileage in one day as many triathletes do in a week. ^This I was 31/167 in my sprint tri earlier this season while having a TERRIBLE swim, and my biggest week this year I'd put in maybe 3500m in the pool? The other day I swam with a friend, put in my longest session of the year, a 2250, while she was doing more like 3750!! I second the suggestion that the fastest improvements ultimately would come from getting a coach to fix anything that is horribly wrong, and might be able to give you some cues to help minimize your losses in the water, but ultimately it's a skill based sport and there just isn't time for huge improvements from sheer time in the water. I used to spin my arms endlessly and quit swimming mid length, tearing off my goggles and swimcap tossing them across the water out of disgust for my lack of progress, swearing to not enter the pool again until I got a swim coach. Turned out to be the best idea I had that year :p |
2015-05-21 7:06 AM in reply to: cast__iron |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Originally posted by cast__iron Definitely technique / naturalborn inefficiency. Guess what, we are land animals. Swimming is learned for all of us so get the natural born inefficacy out of your head its the same for all of us. You are just starting later in life. Find a good swim instructor and start with the basics |
2015-05-21 11:47 AM in reply to: mike761 |
102 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Swim Coach! The efficiency will make you much faster with less effort |
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2015-05-21 12:28 PM in reply to: #5117149 |
91 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint I think your girlfriend is correct. When I entered the sport, I joined a masters class which really helped my endurance. My problem was I was still the worst of the group. I swam with a college swimmer and then a new coach. They were so much faster with what seemed to be half the effort. Yes, they both alternated sides when breathing, breathed every 3 strokes. I also noticed that each stroke ended with kind of a glide. The tough thing is I had to unlearn bad habits. What did it for me is that I started breathing facing the same lane rope down and back in a 25 yard pool. That forced me to learn the weaker side. Once I was able to start alternating sides, I tried to glide until I almost starting sinking until I started my next stroke. And most of all I never looked at the clock. Over time, I learned to go faster with less effort. It was also a bit of visualization....kind of like your girlfriend is doing by watching the really good swimmers. This might not be a coach's advice but it worked for me. |
2015-05-21 12:29 PM in reply to: #5117149 |
91 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint I think your girlfriend is correct. When I entered the sport, I joined a masters class which really helped my endurance. My problem was I was still the worst of the group. I swam with a college swimmer and then a new coach. They were so much faster with what seemed to be half the effort. Yes, they both alternated sides when breathing, breathed every 3 strokes. I also noticed that each stroke ended with kind of a glide. The tough thing is I had to unlearn bad habits. What did it for me is that I started breathing facing the same lane rope down and back in a 25 yard pool. That forced me to learn the weaker side. Once I was able to start alternating sides, I tried to glide until I almost starting sinking until I started my next stroke. And most of all I never looked at the clock. Over time, I learned to go faster with less effort. It was also a bit of visualization....kind of like your girlfriend is doing by watching the really good swimmers. This might not be a coach's advice but it worked for me. |
2015-05-21 12:35 PM in reply to: 0 |
1660 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint If you're swimming a half mile in 24 minutes, and given your big lack of swim-specific background/training, it is almost certain that you have not just a technique limiter, but a HUGE swim-fitness limiter.
In order to tap into your aerobic engine you built running/cycling, you must have the muscular endurance in the swim-arm motion to match. This takes a lot of training and hard work.
It is a total myth that people should be swimming at even MOP speeds with zero swim fitness, and just 'magic technique.' You need swim-specific muscular endurance, and running and cycling do NOT build this whatsoever. On the bright side, you should improve pretty quickly with your ability to suffer based on your run/cycling training.
And yes, technique technique technique is still the name of the game until you're readily swimming 2:00/100yds paces for distance - you'll pick up the low-level musular endurance you need at that level just from technique training. After that though, gotta start cranking it up. Edited by yazmaster 2015-05-21 12:36 PM |
2015-05-21 1:26 PM in reply to: 0 |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Originally posted by yazmaster It is a total myth that people should be swimming at even MOP speeds with zero swim fitness, and just 'magic technique.' That is an interesting statement. I taught my son to swim many years ago and he has fairly good technique, but never did any competitive swimming or swam laps. He is also very fit, plays a lot of soccer and runs some(17 years old). In a couple weeks when the summer pool opens I'll see if I can talk him into swimming some timed 100's and 200's for me. Just a curious test, I'll post results if I can talk him into it. Edited by mike761 2015-05-21 1:27 PM |
2015-05-21 1:58 PM in reply to: cast__iron |
11 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint I'm going to be a bit contrarian here. Here's what I know about myself: when I'm in the water in a race my form reverts to whatever I have practiced most. Last summer when I was self-coaching with drills, no matter what I practiced in the pool I would get a couple hundred yards in and I would have fallen back into my old habits. If you're similar then any sort of technique alteration over the next 2 1/2 weeks is not going to "stick" come race time, whether you're self-coached or coached by a dude on the deck. Because you're limited on time, I would structure it this way: I would do three swim workouts/week in the next two weeks. The first week I would focus mainly on volume. Work towards increasing your single-workout yardage by 125% - 150%. The second week I would focus more on speed/sprinting. You probably won't get fast or efficient in 2 1/2 weeks. But with your fitness base you can be stronger and fitter and inefficient on race day. Once you have a longer block of time (i.e. three months, minimum) find a coach. Efficiency is way more important than fitness in swimming, but efficiency isn't something you can learn quickly. Efficiency really comes over the course of a few months with someone watching you and devising drills to help fix the problems with your stroke. I started with a coach in December and I've managed to drop about a minute off of a 400 yd TT by swimming 2-3x/wk. I hope that helps. Good luck! |
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2015-05-21 2:33 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by yazmaster That is an interesting statement. I taught my son to swim many years ago and he has fairly good technique, but never did any competitive swimming or swam laps. He is also very fit, plays a lot of soccer and runs some(17 years old). In a couple weeks when the summer pool opens I'll see if I can talk him into swimming some timed 100's and 200's for me. Just a curious test, I'll post results if I can talk him into it. It is a total myth that people should be swimming at even MOP speeds with zero swim fitness, and just 'magic technique.' I think this applies more at longer distances. I swam and played water polo in school. Now, many years later, I could jump in and swim a fast 100 without much in the way of workouts. But the pace dropoff at 500, or a mile or more is terrible. And keep in mind most triathlons are at least 800. |
2015-05-21 2:45 PM in reply to: cast__iron |
4 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint THANKS EVERYONE! I'M GOING TO IMPLEMENT YOUR SUGGESTIONS, MUCH APPRECIATED. |
2015-05-21 3:08 PM in reply to: spudone |
1660 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Originally posted by spudone Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by yazmaster That is an interesting statement. I taught my son to swim many years ago and he has fairly good technique, but never did any competitive swimming or swam laps. He is also very fit, plays a lot of soccer and runs some(17 years old). In a couple weeks when the summer pool opens I'll see if I can talk him into swimming some timed 100's and 200's for me. Just a curious test, I'll post results if I can talk him into it. It is a total myth that people should be swimming at even MOP speeds with zero swim fitness, and just 'magic technique.' I think this applies more at longer distances. I swam and played water polo in school. Now, many years later, I could jump in and swim a fast 100 without much in the way of workouts. But the pace dropoff at 500, or a mile or more is terrible. And keep in mind most triathlons are at least 800.
Even more importantly, if you did ANY significant water sports, be it club swimming, YMCA swimming, or water polo, in the past, yes, of course, you can either come back to speed MUCH faster or even be pretty decent right out of the bat even 'out of shape.'
This totally does not apply to the OP who has zero swim background and has never swam faster than 24min for a half mile, he's got to put in some work before getting up to speed.
If swimming was almost all technique for speed, and very little fitness component, people would be getting very fast by just doing slow drills and refining strokes carefully. But watch how any good swim program works, and they swim hard, and a lot. |
2015-05-22 12:49 PM in reply to: jennifer_runs |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Yup... 14-16 km daily ... |
2015-05-22 12:52 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint |
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2015-05-22 2:27 PM in reply to: cast__iron |
4 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Again, I'm blown away by all the great responses, you've all inspired me to get a coach, spend time in water and kick in my swim time in 2016. I don't know how anyone here finds time to sleep and cook meals though. |
2015-05-22 2:41 PM in reply to: cast__iron |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint While you're at it, tell your GF that swimmers don't "scoop water"......they pull themselves through it. You aren't moving water, you're moving your body. BIG difference. |
2015-05-23 11:31 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
4 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint reminds me of a principle I learned in Brazilian jiu jitsu - try pushing 10 people off of you vs pushing yourself off of 10 people. |
2015-05-23 3:39 PM in reply to: 0 |
216 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Originally posted by cast__iron My girlfriend says minimize head / neck movement with breathing, kick faster / with smaller movements, and keep my arms in / scoop the water more, and maybe switch to alternating sides (breathe every 3 strokes). Kicking faster is probably NOT the answer. The last thing you want to do in a triathlon is wear your legs out in the swim. Many novice swimmers over-kick (either in motion or in frequency) just to keep their lower bodies from sinking because they have their center of balance too far forward. If you keep your head down and "lean forward" a little, moving the center of balance from your shoulder area closer to your hips, you won't have to fight to keep your legs from sinking. Then all it takes is a little "flick kick" with each stroke to counteract the rotational forces. As for the breathing, don't be afraid to rotate your head, but it should be on the same axis as your entire body. If you're turning and lifting, you're likely shifting that weight rearward and driving your legs down, which is increasing drag and increasing the energy you have to put into the kick to keep from sinking. Edited by gary p 2015-05-23 3:43 PM |
2015-05-24 2:03 PM in reply to: cast__iron |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint Originally posted by cast__iron reminds me of a principle I learned in Brazilian jiu jitsu - try pushing 10 people off of you vs pushing yourself off of 10 people. I like this! can you post a video? you can get some good feeback although you might not kno what to do with it. If you swim 1/2 mile in 24 minutes I bet we could find one or twot hings you coudl do between now and then to knock a few minutes off but more importantly, keep you fresher at the end of your swim so you start your bike ride feeling great. |
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2015-05-24 4:00 PM in reply to: cast__iron |
Member 1004 | Subject: RE: swim faster in 17 days? sprint I was much the same. I was a good runner, okay biker and slow swimmer. I've been working a lot on my swimming over the last two years, took a master's class, practice 2 - 3 times a week and I've made incremental gains. Some people make a quick jump in speed when they get some training in but for most, the progress is glacial. I'd say go for the long term. Get coaching and work on technique. |
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