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2016-04-05 11:32 AM

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Subject: Undercover Draft Busters
I had a thought a couple of weeks ago. Undercover draft busters.

Have volunteers suit up in race gear, numbers and all, and ride the course intermixed with the racers to bust drafting. Have them just do the bike, or a section of the bike. They wouldn't be racing, just riding the course, looking like a racer to bust drafting.

This would have two huge benefits:

First, the threat would all but eliminate drafting in my opinion. You would have no way of knowing who was a draft buster, so no more drafting until you hear a motorcycle coming, have a mirror on your bike, or any of the other nonsense. The risk would be huge and the RD could keep the number of draft busters secret, so nobody would know the odds.

Second, it would eliminate false penalties. As it is now, refs on motorcycles only have a limited time to determine if someone is drafting or not, because, as to point one, the second they hear them or see them, they break up. By having an undercover draft buster the rider could stay with the group for up to a mile or more to ensure it is not just bunching due to hills or wind, or a pass attempt that failed, or an innocent racer that got caught up in a pack as they passed.

For the volunteers, it would not only allow them to volunteer for the event, but also have a decent training ride to boot.

Thoughts?


2016-04-05 11:58 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

it would NEVER happen.  it shouldn't be allowed because it may confuse other racers into thinking they are part of the race.  If they see one of these draft marshals riding near them...then suddenly ride up the road to the next group (you would likely need a motor or a pro level cyclist), what if they react to it thinking a podium spot is on the line?  Or worse...what if they end up drafting the undercover (legally or illegally) to bridge the gap to the next group?  A draft Marshall can't possibly call a foul on someone who is 1 bike length too close...it's too hard to evaluate while you are looking forward.  Motorcycle marshals can be part of the race while riding off to the right and having minimal impact as they can accelerate so fast as not to drag anyone in their draft.  You can't say that about an undercover.

2016-04-05 12:01 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

No idea if it would work, but like the sentiment!

 

2016-04-05 12:02 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

The draft buster becomes part of the problem. There's a concept in groups that basically says this: each person has a threshold above which they will join in on something they otherwise know is wrong, just because other people are doing it. For some that threshold is zero, others it's a low number. Once that draft buster joins in, they increase the chances that others will as well.

It's a difficult thing to catch people in the act, and it has to be something that's policed from within.

2016-04-05 12:06 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
eliminate drafting, that's a good one.
2016-04-05 12:36 PM
in reply to: briderdt

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1502
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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
I didn't mean they would join the group. They'd jump in the course, ride easy, let people pass then when a group went by, accelerate, follow at draft legal distance for long enough to evaluate the sutuation, then bust.

Wouldn't need to be world class at all. You only have to keep up for 3-5 minutes. And they wouldn't be riding the whole course. By planting ahead and allowing everyone to pass then they don't interfere with the race.

The best part is, you don't have to have many....heck, you could have zero! It's the threat.


2016-04-05 12:50 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
Originally posted by 3mar

The best part is, you don't have to have many....heck, you could have zero! It's the threat.


The threat isn't much. Moto officials are VERY hard, if not impossible to hear before they are on top of you... certainly you wouldn't have time to move out of a draft when you did hear them, and the threat of that is not enough to keep drafting from happening. The problem is that the risk/reward (especially offense #1) is very high for those who are looking to game the system.

More moto's or perhaps strategically placed drones might help, but certainly won't eliminate the problem.
2016-04-05 12:57 PM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by Leegoocrap
Originally posted by 3mar The best part is, you don't have to have many....heck, you could have zero! It's the threat.
The threat isn't much. Moto officials are VERY hard, if not impossible to hear before they are on top of you... certainly you wouldn't have time to move out of a draft when you did hear them, and the threat of that is not enough to keep drafting from happening. The problem is that the risk/reward (especially offense #1) is very high for those who are looking to game the system. More moto's or perhaps strategically placed drones might help, but certainly won't eliminate the problem.

^^^^^^ this and what Jason said.  I don't think it's as hard to stop as most people make it.  Just make the penalty bigger. 

2016-04-05 12:59 PM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

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1502
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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
Originally posted by Leegoocrap

Originally posted by 3mar

The best part is, you don't have to have many....heck, you could have zero! It's the threat.


The threat isn't much. Moto officials are VERY hard, if not impossible to hear before they are on top of you... certainly you wouldn't have time to move out of a draft when you did hear them, and the threat of that is not enough to keep drafting from happening. The problem is that the risk/reward (especially offense #1) is very high for those who are looking to game the system.

More moto's or perhaps strategically placed drones might help, but certainly won't eliminate the problem.


It's the flat and windy courses (like Florida and Cozumel) that have the worst drafting. That's because people think they can beat the system. A moto *should* be watching for at least a minute to be sure it's drafting and 60 seconds is more than enough time to break up after hearing it. It's not an instantaneous thing, that's the problem. So yeah, you don't hear them until they roll up, but then you do, and you can break up quickly. For them to be sure, they have to be close enough for long enough, and that leaves the door open.

Undercover relieves that problem without (in my opinion) introducing others.
2016-04-05 1:12 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Not a Coach
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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by 3mar I had a thought a couple of weeks ago. 

Thoughts?

My thoughts go hand-in-hand with your other threads on the top of the page.  Less thinking.  More racing/hard training.

2016-04-05 1:13 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
Those riders (I'm assuming we're talking about FOP here... you will simply never break up groups MOP/BOP... rider skill isn't diverse enough and people don't really care. Same way you'll never eliminate people listening to their ipod or taking selfies.) have much...much better hearing in an aero helmet than I've ever experienced.

Also so we're clear, you're suggesting an undercover rider be able to keep up with a FOP draft group long enough to judge their intent, stay out of others way and not impede the race... and they don't need to be bike studs? I don't think we're seeing the same races...


2016-04-05 1:14 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

Originally posted by Leegoocrap
Originally posted by 3mar The best part is, you don't have to have many....heck, you could have zero! It's the threat.
The threat isn't much. Moto officials are VERY hard, if not impossible to hear before they are on top of you... certainly you wouldn't have time to move out of a draft when you did hear them, and the threat of that is not enough to keep drafting from happening. The problem is that the risk/reward (especially offense #1) is very high for those who are looking to game the system. More moto's or perhaps strategically placed drones might help, but certainly won't eliminate the problem.

^^^^^^ this and what Jason said.  I don't think it's as hard to stop as most people make it.  Just make the penalty bigger. 

I've always liked the 1K run penalty loop for drafters proposal rather than a few minute stand down where they can rest and hydrate



Edited by ChrisM 2016-04-05 1:14 PM
2016-04-05 1:16 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar I had a thought a couple of weeks ago. 

Thoughts?

My thoughts go hand-in-hand with your other threads on the top of the page.  Less thinking.  More racing/hard training.




Yeah, we wouldn't want to improve anything by thinking about it, would we?

And last I checked, it wasn't an either/or type of situation....you can do both.
2016-04-05 1:22 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Not a Coach
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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar I had a thought a couple of weeks ago. 

Thoughts?

My thoughts go hand-in-hand with your other threads on the top of the page.  Less thinking.  More racing/hard training.

Yeah, we wouldn't want to improve anything by thinking about it, would we? And last I checked, it wasn't an either/or type of situation....you can do both.

Sorry.  Should have included a smiley face or something there.  Didn't mean it the way I see you took it.  My bad!

2016-04-05 1:25 PM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
Originally posted by Leegoocrap

Those riders (I'm assuming we're talking about FOP here... you will simply never break up groups MOP/BOP... rider skill isn't diverse enough and people don't really care. Same way you'll never eliminate people listening to their ipod or taking selfies.) have much...much better hearing in an aero helmet than I've ever experienced.

Also so we're clear, you're suggesting an undercover rider be able to keep up with a FOP draft group long enough to judge their intent, stay out of others way and not impede the race... and they don't need to be bike studs? I don't think we're seeing the same races...


60 seconds? Yes. I'm a MOP rider but I can hold 400 watts for 60 seconds. We're talking HIM/IM here.

Also, I don't think we are seeing the same races. I've shared the same viewpoint of just about every ex club swimmer starting in triathlon, who has come out of the water FOP only to get passed by half the field in the race. It's clear who's drafting. You wouldn't even need to maintain their speed for that long.



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2016-04-05 1:27 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar I had a thought a couple of weeks ago. 

Thoughts?

My thoughts go hand-in-hand with your other threads on the top of the page.  Less thinking.  More racing/hard training.

Yeah, we wouldn't want to improve anything by thinking about it, would we? And last I checked, it wasn't an either/or type of situation....you can do both.

Sorry.  Should have included a smiley face or something there.  Didn't mean it the way I see you took it.  My bad!




Oops...I guess I shouldn't have jumped to the negative either.


2016-04-05 1:30 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Not a Coach
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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by 3mar I've shared the same viewpoint of just about every ex club swimmer starting in triathlon, who has come out of the water FOP only to get passed by half the field in the race. It's clear who's drafting.

If a rider is getting passed by half the field, it is VERY difficult for them to judge who is drafting.  At least when judging illegal drafting vs. 'legal' drafting.

 

That said, and while I was half joking with my prior post, I do think this is a bad idea (with obvious good intent) for many of the reasons cited already.  The attempt to solve the problem by putting more bikes on the course and potentially impeding the race does not seem like a good trade-off to trying to catch a few extra cheats.

2016-04-05 2:01 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar I've shared the same viewpoint of just about every ex club swimmer starting in triathlon, who has come out of the water FOP only to get passed by half the field in the race. It's clear who's drafting.

If a rider is getting passed by half the field, it is VERY difficult for them to judge who is drafting.  At least when judging illegal drafting vs. 'legal' drafting.

 

That said, and while I was half joking with my prior post, I do think this is a bad idea (with obvious good intent) for many of the reasons cited already.  The attempt to solve the problem by putting more bikes on the course and potentially impeding the race does not seem like a good trade-off to trying to catch a few extra cheats.




I can't imagine that putting 10-20 extra cyclists on a course with 2,000+ will make any appreciable difference. Also, the example of being passed by half the field was just perspective...i.e. I've seen it from that angle. At the time, no I couldn't keep up, nor was I going fast enough to judge, however, put someone like me now on the course (and there's PLENTY of people at my cycling ability or better) and I could ride 30-50 miles at 20-22 mph on a flat IM course then accelerate for long enough to ID draft groups that go by without issue. At 1-2% of the field size, it wouldn't impede any more than people on motorcycles.

Back to the original point, on the flat open courses, where lots of people draft because they can see for miles and see the motos coming, the threat of undercover draft busters would greatly reduce drafting. There is no looking out. You'd have to assume that anyone you passed could be a draft buster. And with plenty of strong swimmers/weak cyclists, that threat would be all over.
2016-04-05 2:08 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
Drone copters would totally solve this problem. Quiet, completely out of competitor's way, and the video feed can be doubled to provide spectators some vantage points of the bike course from back in transition (I have a race in May where they are running drones for the swim and bike legs for the spectators). Winning all around.
2016-04-05 2:09 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by 3mar I didn't mean they would join the group. They'd jump in the course, ride easy, let people pass then when a group went by, accelerate, follow at draft legal distance for long enough to evaluate the sutuation, then bust. Wouldn't need to be world class at all. You only have to keep up for 3-5 minutes. And they wouldn't be riding the whole course. By planting ahead and allowing everyone to pass then they don't interfere with the race. The best part is, you don't have to have many....heck, you could have zero! It's the threat.

I'd love to see someone on a tri bike, pull up next to you on your left, pull out his pen and paper and write down your number while flashing you a red card.  That should end up well....LOL.

Kidding aside, again, this won't work for the FOP.  They generally know who's ahead of them, especially the guy who comes out of the water first.  An undercover soft pedaling ahead of the lead group is going to be pretty obvious.  

I also still don't like the idea of adding people on the course to appear as racers.  Not only can it provide real athletes with a legal draft that they shouldn't be getting, or a sling shot as the undercover drops back, but it can impact someone's decision making.  Imagine if you're in the 40-44 AG and your wife is spectating at T1 and tells you you're 5th in your AG out of the water.  You know your AG is numbers 150-200.  On the bike you pass 3 other legit 40-44 AGers so now you're in 2nd.  Then you pass the undercover guy who's number 178 and now you think you're in first.  You get off the bike (lets assume you don't see your wife for an update coming into T2) and you pace yourself accordingly looking back for your competition not knowing first is still 3 minutes ahead of you.  You dial back your run pace as not to blow up and you cross the finish thinking you've won, but you're really 2nd...45 seconds behind the guy who was still ahead...but could have passed if you didn't ease up thinking you were winning.

2016-04-05 2:15 PM
in reply to: 0

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Draft busting drones with cameras would work, right?

ETA:  I didn't see CycloneVM's post above.  What a great idea.



Edited by Hook'em 2016-04-05 2:16 PM


2016-04-05 2:22 PM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
Originally posted by Hook'em

Draft busting drones with cameras would work, right?

ETA:  I didn't see CycloneVM's post above.  What a great idea.




I don't see how they could see race numbers, but yeah. Maybe if they added a number sticker to be worn on athlete's backs.
2016-04-05 2:26 PM
in reply to: 0

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by 3mar I didn't mean they would join the group. They'd jump in the course, ride easy, let people pass then when a group went by, accelerate, follow at draft legal distance for long enough to evaluate the sutuation, then bust. Wouldn't need to be world class at all. You only have to keep up for 3-5 minutes. And they wouldn't be riding the whole course. By planting ahead and allowing everyone to pass then they don't interfere with the race. The best part is, you don't have to have many....heck, you could have zero! It's the threat.

I'd love to see someone on a tri bike, pull up next to you on your left, pull out his pen and paper and write down your number while flashing you a red card.  That should end up well....LOL.

Kidding aside, again, this won't work for the FOP.  They generally know who's ahead of them, especially the guy who comes out of the water first.  An undercover soft pedaling ahead of the lead group is going to be pretty obvious.  

I also still don't like the idea of adding people on the course to appear as racers.  Not only can it provide real athletes with a legal draft that they shouldn't be getting, or a sling shot as the undercover drops back, but it can impact someone's decision making.  Imagine if you're in the 40-44 AG and your wife is spectating at T1 and tells you you're 5th in your AG out of the water.  You know your AG is numbers 150-200.  On the bike you pass 3 other legit 40-44 AGers so now you're in 2nd.  Then you pass the undercover guy who's number 178 and now you think you're in first.  You get off the bike (lets assume you don't see your wife for an update coming into T2) and you pace yourself accordingly looking back for your competition not knowing first is still 3 minutes ahead of you.  You dial back your run pace as not to blow up and you cross the finish thinking you've won, but you're really 2nd...45 seconds behind the guy who was still ahead...but could have passed if you didn't ease up thinking you were winning.




The details are the details. The draft busters could note the number(s) then pull over and radio it in. Or stop, text it in, then that racer gets grabbed at T2. Numbers could be ambiguous. Or even better, draft busters could wear compression sleeves hiding the leg number and wrinkle the bike number. Where there's a will there's a way. Rather than hammer on the details, first address the overall concept. Details can always be worked out. There will always be some ex-Div 1 swimmer coming out of the water in the FOFOP who will get passed on the bike. So it's not as though a slow rider is unheard of in the FOP.

Edited by 3mar 2016-04-05 2:27 PM
2016-04-05 2:28 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
let me ask you this

do you think the threat of undercover police vehicles reduce the number of people who speed?
2016-04-05 2:29 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by 3mar  Back to the original point, on the flat open courses, where lots of people draft because they can see for miles and see the motos coming, the threat of undercover draft busters would greatly reduce drafting. There is no looking out. You'd have to assume that anyone you passed could be a draft buster. And with plenty of strong swimmers/weak cyclists, that threat would be all over.

Actually, the easiest way to combat drafting is to not race events that are conducive to it.  The masses have flocked to courses that are flat and fast...and people seem to like races with lots of people in it rather than 500 or less.  Those are the exact formulas for drafting to begin with no matter how much policing you have.  Pick a race course like Savageman, Wildflower, IM Nice, or the former St. George or Lake Tahoe and you get a lot less complaints.  The cream rises to the top and you get a much less congested and cleaner race for all involved.

Trying to stop drafting at IM Florida is like going to the mall on Black Friday and suggesting to the shops how to reduce the wait at the cash register.

 

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