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OK....Pointy helmet talk.
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 2016-05-25 7:34 AM |
Expert  2852     Pfafftown, NC |  Subject: OK....Pointy helmet talk.I was reading something yesterday that claimed an aero helmet is (on average) worth about a minute/hour. Before I go any further, is this an accepted truth? I understand there's a LOT of individuality to these things. That's why I said "on average". If it's true, I'll have more questions. If it's not true..........what is? Thanks. |
| 2016-05-25 8:06 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
1664 , Kronobergs lan | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. I don't know but they are funny to look at  |
| 2016-05-25 8:25 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. What does it matter? The average temperature where I live is 56F. Is that useful to you in deciding what to wear today? |
| 2016-05-25 8:46 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. I put my aero helmet next to my regular helmet, after an hour they were both in the same spot  |
| 2016-05-25 9:00 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. I've never heard that particular claim. I think the possible ranges are so big (a few seconds to a few minutes) that giving an average is fairly pointless. |
| 2016-05-25 9:06 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. Originally posted by axteraa I've never heard that particular claim. I think the possible ranges are so big (a few seconds to a few minutes) that giving an average is fairly pointless. Is it even a given that an aero helmet would save time over a non aero helmet (let's call a Giro Air helmet a non-aero helmet)? I'm not asking for absolutes. I'm deciding whether or not I want one of these things........or not. I'm guessing not everyone who owns one (or, even a majority) does wind tunnel tests. How did they all figure out which one was best for them? How did you (If you wear one) decide on yours? Thanks. |
| 2016-05-25 9:20 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. A given - no, but a high probability. Again, that time might only be a few seconds. Outside of a wind tunnel, you can do testing on the road. It's much easier with a power meter but I *think* there are options without one as well (don't quote me on that one). My first one I bought because I got it cheap and the marketing said it was great. I replaced it because it was generally regarded as a poor choice for many people (based on a lot of testing) and I replaced it with one that is generally regarded as a good choice for those who can't test. |
| 2016-05-25 9:34 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. There's a good probability it will make you faster. No guarantee, of course. |
| 2016-05-25 9:50 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. Originally posted by JohnnyKay There's a good probability it will make you faster. No guarantee, of course. That's what I'm looking for. I honestly don't know much about these things, and I had promised myself I wasn't going to get one. Now, I see the differences from finishing some races (I'm doing several sprints this year) in 5th.....down to 1st.....in seconds, sometimes. I did a sprint this year where 1-3rd was separated by 42 seconds. I wouldn't think that's unusual, at all. (*I'm talking - in my AG......of course ) I've also read that the Air Advantage and selectors (Giros) are kinda "generic" .....in that a lot of people use them. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I suppose a lot of people feel they're getting "some" advantage from them. They're reasonably priced (lots of them used on various sites). That helps. I'm using an air attack (I have the shield but don't race with it on). I understand they're NOT very aero. I'm guessing either of the two I mentioned above would be an advantage. Edited by nc452010 2016-05-25 9:51 AM |
| 2016-05-25 10:58 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. Originally posted by nc452010 Paying attention to all the small details can add up to help when things are close among finishing times. The right helmet can make a diff, as can using the fastest tires, View-speed skewers, smoother shoes, TriRig front brake and so on. On the following chart doesn't seem like that much of a diff between the Giro Air Attack to the Advantage, but the rule of thumb is 0.005 CdA=50gr drag=5 watts=.5sec/km(0.8sec/mi). Originally posted by JohnnyKay That's what I'm looking for. I honestly don't know much about these things, and I had promised myself I wasn't going to get one. Now, I see the differences from finishing some races (I'm doing several sprints this year) in 5th.....down to 1st.....in seconds, sometimes. I did a sprint this year where 1-3rd was separated by 42 seconds. I wouldn't think that's unusual, at all. (*I'm talking - in my AG......of course There's a good probability it will make you faster. No guarantee, of course. ) I've also read that the Air Advantage and selectors (Giros) are kinda "generic" .....in that a lot of people use them. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I suppose a lot of people feel they're getting "some" advantage from them. They're reasonably priced (lots of them used on various sites). That helps. I'm using an air attack (I have the shield but don't race with it on). I understand they're NOT very aero. I'm guessing either of the two I mentioned above would be an advantage.
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| 2016-05-25 12:24 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 5 | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. FWIW, I've had several coaches tell me for the general AG population, the pointy helmets are not as time saving as claimed. When you factor in sighting behind you and your surrounding--specifically for the AGers--you offset the frontal benefit. That's why the trend for aero helmets is going away from the "long pointy types." If you're FOP, it probably is as much of a concern. Edited by way2sloow 2016-05-25 12:24 PM |
| 2016-05-25 12:42 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. Originally posted by axteraa A given - no, but a high probability. Again, that time might only be a few seconds. Outside of a wind tunnel, you can do testing on the road. It's much easier with a power meter but I *think* there are options without one as well (don't quote me on that one). My first one I bought because I got it cheap and the marketing said it was great. I replaced it because it was generally regarded as a poor choice for many people (based on a lot of testing) and I replaced it with one that is generally regarded as a good choice for those who can't test. A rolling test won't give quantifiable data, but it can provide relative data. On a calm day on a hill, time how long it takes to roll from a standstill in a static position multiple times with each helmet from the same starting point to the same ending point. Average the times for each helmet and look at the delta. It won't provide useful information regarding how much faster helmet 'A' is than helmet 'B', but it can help with gear selection.
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| 2016-05-25 3:46 PM in reply to: nc452010 |
| 1660 | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. Also worth considering as an AGer is if you've near-optimized your transitions before plunking down the money for an aero helmet.
If you haven't optimized your transitions, and you cut off 60 seconds combined in T1-T2 (very realistic for most AGers), you've definitively outperformed your non-optmized transition self + expensive aero helmet.
Of course, no reason you can't do both, but it's worth considering what stuff will save you the most time (and for the best bang for buck) before dropping cash on expensive stuff with unclear quantifiable benefits.
But also, I totally understand if you just want to spend money on something else cool-looking in triathlon, but that's a whole different story. |
| 2016-05-25 4:00 PM in reply to: yazmaster |
Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. When I read this I bought an aero helmet that was at a super discount. http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/how-aero-is-aero-1927... With the same bike/aerobar setup the aero helmet was around 0.01 lower on the CdA and about 9 Watts saved on power. Over a 56 or 112 mile bike ride could make a different I would imagine. |
| 2016-05-25 4:15 PM in reply to: reecealan |
Official BT Coach 18500 Indianapolis, Indiana Gold member | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. I know this isn't really directly answering the OP's original question but it certainly does give some idea of "biggest bang for your buck." Sorry, I don't recall where I got this so can't give proper credit. (ttchart.jpg) Attachments ---------------- ttchart.jpg (96KB - 4 downloads) |
| 2016-05-25 4:54 PM in reply to: #5183664 |
Extreme Veteran 890 Sterling | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. Buy an aero helmet. It's still the best bang for the buck out there when it comes to gaining a tad bit of speed. |
| 2016-05-25 5:07 PM in reply to: #5183801 |
| 74 | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. reading aero savings study after study from different companies will be misleading and confusing. The pointy-est "most aero" helmet may claim to be fastest, but if you look down at your stem/computer/rest your neck it sticks up like a wind sock and minimizes the savings you though you had in the bag. To answer your original thought...I was in the market for a helmet based on the bang for the buck equation. I went with a bontrager ballista bc it's a better all around piece of equipment. I can wear it training, my head won't cook inside bc it's well vented, and it was allegedly more aero than some other aero road lids. I know it's not the traditional pointy helmet, but that's how I came to my purchase. Also, I figure if pros wear it in kona, it's a good piece if gear all around and won't hold me back. |
| 2016-05-25 6:43 PM in reply to: PBT_2009 |
Expert 2373 Floriduh | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. I have a Giro Advantage and tell you the truth, it's pretty darn comfortable, at least as comfy as my regular Giro helmet. I'd wear it regularly if it didn't look so goofy. |
| 2016-05-25 7:18 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. Aero helmets are a very individual thing because they depend on position and the rider. Air does not flow the same way for everyone There are 4 options 1- believe it doesn't matter 2- go with what turns your crank 3- test and figure out which is best 4- rely on data that says "for most people, helmet X is best" and hope you are like "most people" The Giro A2 is really good for that last option (4). I have one and it's "almost" the best. I have tested several and "FOR ME", the LG P09 does well. I have tested the A2, Air Attack, LG, Selector, Bambino and a few others. |
| 2016-05-25 10:00 PM in reply to: nc452010 |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. Not every helmet is optimized for every possible body position. Short tail aero helmets and the better aero road models are probably more consistent in their advantage. A long tail helmet in a sub optimal position may be worse. |
| 2016-05-25 10:04 PM in reply to: PBT_2009 |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. I have the black one. Fits good, looks stealthy. Great choice for draft legal worlds. |
| 2016-05-26 4:22 AM in reply to: k9car363 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. Well, I already have a P2 (aero bike with aero bars); good tires; race wheels and a skin suit. I'm looking for the last extra seconds I can squeeze out. I suppose my next moves are latex tubes and a pointy helmet. FWIW, I don't consider the cost of the helmet a detractor. I have a helmet to use for training, and I found several used Selectors on Ebay for $59.99. Thanks for all of the information. |
| 2016-05-26 5:25 AM in reply to: #5183803 |
| 31 | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. @axteraa Which helmet was that first one you mentioned that was replaced? |
| 2016-05-26 6:14 AM in reply to: DomerTriGuy |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. Originally posted by DomerTriGuy @axteraa Which helmet was that first one you mentioned that was replaced? Rudy Project Wingspan |
| 2016-05-26 7:08 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: OK....Pointy helmet talk. Originally posted by nc452010 Well, I already have a P2 (aero bike with aero bars); good tires; race wheels and a skin suit. I'm looking for the last extra seconds I can squeeze out. I suppose my next moves are latex tubes and a pointy helmet. FWIW, I don't consider the cost of the helmet a detractor. I have a helmet to use for training, and I found several used Selectors on Ebay for $59.99. Thanks for all of the information. Never buy a used helmet!!! The primary purpose of a helmet is to protect your head in a crash. Helmets are also designed for 1 crash, JUST 1. Then you through it away and buy a new one. You do not know what a used helmet has been thru and no one selling a used helmet is going to tell you they crashed in it. I crashed in a 1/2 in 2010, off the shoulder into grass at 27 mph. I was checked out, helmet looked fine and I finished the race. When it was over and I took a good look at the helmet, I saw it was actually crack down the center. With a less extreme crash it would simply crush some of the "foam" material, you can't really see this when it happens. That material crushing is what absorbs the impact and saves your head. |
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