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Long swim frequency
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 2016-06-07 7:07 AM |
Expert  2852     Pfafftown, NC |  Subject: Long swim frequencyThe thread about swim training (minimalist) got me wondering........how often do you do a distance swim? Honestly, I swim with masters class 3X/wk. With the exception of a broken mile here and there......we never swim any appreciable distance. My tri group did a little over a mile swim a couple weeks ago. I've done a 1.2 mi swim a couple months ago....and a 1500 M swim a few weeks before that. What's the accepted wisdom on how often one should perform an endurance swim? Is the benefit "mostly" psychological? Thanks. |
| 2016-06-07 7:29 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency The only time I swim any significant distance straight is 1. during races, 2. occasionally doing an open water swim but that tends to get broken down somewhat too. For someone new to swimming, I can see doing it once or twice purely to have the confidence in knowing that they can do it but after that I see no need. |
| 2016-06-07 7:35 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Veteran 486 Newcastle, England | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency If i go out doors, i just get in and swim - for the joy of it (but i do use a tempo trainer to govern pace) Have been even known to do the odd 10k |
| 2016-06-07 7:51 AM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency If you are physically capable of swimming the distance, then the benefit of doing a longer swim would mainly be psychological (to reassure yourself that you can do it). But I think that especially for less experienced swimmers, or someone attempting a new race distance or one you haven't done in a while, there would be benefit to doing one or two swims of race distance to get a feel for appropriate pacing/effort level before the race. Judging from the number of people I pass in the last half of most of my tri swims. and the speed at which they've swum the first 200m, it's clear that some athletes REALLY need to work on their pacing, or maybe just their self-assessment of their swimming! In my last race, I did a 35-minute HIM split in very rough ocean conditions, with no wetsuit. I had seeded myself about halfway through the 30-35 minute group, on the basis of my best HIM split, which is 32:39. A few hundred meters in, I began passing quite a few people who had started ahead of me, some of them doing breaststroke. Really?? Personally, I like to do at least one continuous swim of race distance to dial in pacing if it's a distance I haven't done in a while, or if my fitness has changed substantially since the last time I raced it, just to make sure I'm seeding myself sensibly (if that's required), and not taking it out too hard (or, in the case of sprints, too easy). I also occasionally do them to acclimate to new OWS swim conditions (cold water, wetsuit, check out currents at a race venue, explore a new OWS spot on vacation) or just to relax or recover from a hard bike or run. Doing long, continuous swims comes easily to me (except counting laps if in a pool!) and I find it relaxing; it's speeding up over a short distance that's hard. Edited by Hot Runner 2016-06-07 7:55 AM |
| 2016-06-07 8:02 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by nc452010 The thread about swim training (minimalist) got me wondering........how often do you do a distance swim? Honestly, I swim with masters class 3X/wk. With the exception of a broken mile here and there......we never swim any appreciable distance. My tri group did a little over a mile swim a couple weeks ago. I've done a 1.2 mi swim a couple months ago....and a 1500 M swim a few weeks before that. What's the accepted wisdom on how often one should perform an endurance swim? Is the benefit "mostly" psychological? Thanks. Straight endurance swims for most triathlete are worthless. The biggest challenge in swimming os overcoming drag. The less streamlined you are the more drag you present. The more drag you present the more energy you need to put out to maintain pace. Most triathletes body position presents a lot of drag. 100 yards in to 500 yards in to 1000 yards in etc, in a straight swim and it just gets worse and worse. Doing 50's or 100's on very short rest (5 seconds) but holding an IM pace is a much better investment then a long swim. |
| 2016-06-07 8:17 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
| 89 | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency I'm gonna disagree with thos who say straight endurance swims are worthless for triathletes. I try to do at least one continuous long swim a week (by long, I mean 2000 yards or more) There is a HUGE difference both physically and mentally between swimming 2k solid at race pace with zero seconds rest (aside from th .5 seconds for a flip turn) and 2k yards at the same effort level but as 20x100 with 10 or 20 or even 5 seconds rest between 100s. Doing speed work is critical as well, just like in running, but the long ones make a big difference, IMO. For me, the results have been pretty clear. |
| 2016-06-07 8:26 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by davejustdave I'm gonna disagree with thos who say straight endurance swims are worthless for triathletes. I try to do at least one continuous long swim a week (by long, I mean 2000 yards or more) There is a HUGE difference both physically and mentally between swimming 2k solid at race pace with zero seconds rest (aside from th .5 seconds for a flip turn) and 2k yards at the same effort level but as 20x100 with 10 or 20 or even 5 seconds rest between 100s. Doing speed work is critical as well, just like in running, but the long ones make a big difference, IMO. For me, the results have been pretty clear. The bolded is where you fall off the page. Again, there is nothing special about "triathlon swimming". Learning to have a faster swim (and there is quite a bit of learning vs. fitness in swimming) is the same principle for all swimming. Edited by Left Brain 2016-06-07 8:28 AM |
| 2016-06-07 8:39 AM in reply to: WildWill |
| 261 | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by WildWill for the joy of it I don't hear enough of this. Hopefully people actually get out and actually enjoy swimming, biking, and running occasionally. I know I do. Sure I try to keep to my training program but I occasionally get out and just ride or swim or run without a plan. Just because I like it. |
| 2016-06-07 8:42 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency I like to do the occasional 1,500 to gauge my swimming fitness and also just to break things up. I'm actually thinking of doing one today on my lunch swim, it gives me something to look forward to other than yet another set of repeats. |
| 2016-06-07 8:48 AM in reply to: davejustdave |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by davejustdave I'm gonna disagree with thos who say straight endurance swims are worthless for triathletes. I try to do at least one continuous long swim a week (by long, I mean 2000 yards or more) There is a HUGE difference both physically and mentally between swimming 2k solid at race pace with zero seconds rest (aside from th .5 seconds for a flip turn) and 2k yards at the same effort level but as 20x100 with 10 or 20 or even 5 seconds rest between 100s. Doing speed work is critical as well, just like in running, but the long ones make a big difference, IMO. For me, the results have been pretty clear. Let's say you can do that 2000 yards straight at a 1:45/100 pace. I guarantee you that doing 20x100 on 1:45 touching the wall at 1:35 is WAY more effective than doing that straight swim. |
| 2016-06-07 8:53 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
| 261 | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by Hot Runner If you are physically capable of swimming the distance, then the benefit of doing a longer swim would mainly be psychological (to reassure yourself that you can do it). But I think that especially for less experienced swimmers, or someone attempting a new race distance or one you haven't done in a while, there would be benefit to doing one or two swims of race distance to get a feel for appropriate pacing/effort level before the race. Judging from the number of people I pass in the last half of most of my tri swims. and the speed at which they've swum the first 200m, it's clear that some athletes REALLY need to work on their pacing, or maybe just their self-assessment of their swimming! In my last race, I did a 35-minute HIM split in very rough ocean conditions, with no wetsuit. I had seeded myself about halfway through the 30-35 minute group, on the basis of my best HIM split, which is 32:39. A few hundred meters in, I began passing quite a few people who had started ahead of me, some of them doing breaststroke. Really?? Personally, I like to do at least one continuous swim of race distance to dial in pacing if it's a distance I haven't done in a while, or if my fitness has changed substantially since the last time I raced it, just to make sure I'm seeding myself sensibly (if that's required), and not taking it out too hard (or, in the case of sprints, too easy). I also occasionally do them to acclimate to new OWS swim conditions (cold water, wetsuit, check out currents at a race venue, explore a new OWS spot on vacation) or just to relax or recover from a hard bike or run. Doing long, continuous swims comes easily to me (except counting laps if in a pool!) and I find it relaxing; it's speeding up over a short distance that's hard. agree with all of this. I do make sure I do at least one race distance swim just for the psychological factor as well as pacing. If it's self seeding it doesn't suprise me that people would not seed themselves correctly. many people just want to get to the front. |
| 2016-06-07 9:08 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Expert 2373 Floriduh | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency For me, my workouts pretty much look like the typical fare, 100's, 200's, and a few drills thrown in here and there. But part of training for 1.5K races is putting a 500 yard swim in the workout regularly. It gets my mind where it needs to be more than a tangible training benefit over the rest of the workout. OWS are not a possibility for me unless I want to swim with the alligators, and I don't. |
| 2016-06-07 9:32 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Training for Oly distance, the longest our masters coach has us go is 4 x 400 or 3 x 500 with a 20 second rest. We'll also do a broken mile occasionally. But most of the time we're just doing sets of 50's, 100's and 200's. One of the kids on the AG team that trains with us in the mornings is going to the Olympics Trials in both the 400 & 1500 free. Don't think he's gone more than 400 yds. in practice since the first of the year. Mark |
| 2016-06-07 11:01 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by davejustdave I'm gonna disagree with thos who say straight endurance swims are worthless for triathletes. I try to do at least one continuous long swim a week (by long, I mean 2000 yards or more) There is a HUGE difference both physically and mentally between swimming 2k solid at race pace with zero seconds rest (aside from th .5 seconds for a flip turn) and 2k yards at the same effort level but as 20x100 with 10 or 20 or even 5 seconds rest between 100s. Doing speed work is critical as well, just like in running, but the long ones make a big difference, IMO. For me, the results have been pretty clear. Let's say you can do that 2000 yards straight at a 1:45/100 pace. I guarantee you that doing 20x100 on 1:45 touching the wall at 1:35 is WAY more effective than doing that straight swim. x2. I would be curious to see a video of someone swimming 2000 straight. Record the first 100, 10th 100, and the last 100. I bet it gets ugly quick. |
| 2016-06-07 11:02 AM in reply to: davejustdave |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by davejustdave I'm gonna disagree with thos who say straight endurance swims are worthless for triathletes. I try to do at least one continuous long swim a week (by long, I mean 2000 yards or more) There is a HUGE difference both physically and mentally between swimming 2k solid at race pace with zero seconds rest (aside from th .5 seconds for a flip turn) and 2k yards at the same effort level but as 20x100 with 10 or 20 or even 5 seconds rest between 100s. Doing speed work is critical as well, just like in running, but the long ones make a big difference, IMO. For me, the results have been pretty clear. Going off what others said in their response. 2k yards at the same is different from 2k yards at the same effort AND pace consistently. |
| 2016-06-07 11:16 AM in reply to: RedCorvette |
Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency I rarely do distance swims, just masters swim 2x/week and one or two swims a week on my own. When I swim on my own it's usually a bunch of 100's maybe some 200's thrown in after the 100's. If I can do two 3,000 yard masters workouts a week then I know I'm more than ready for any triathlon swim up to 1.2 miles. Other than enjoyment, I really see no training benefit from long swims. But I don't think one size fits all, as I guess there's psychology at play for some. I've been doing tris for over 6 years now and still don't see the need for long swims during training. I've collected a lot of good tips from this forum as well as the "other" forum and personal tips from swim coaches, Elite AG'ers as well as a few Pro's. If you enjoy the long swim do it. If you think the long swim will help your race results do it. I think banging out sets 100's at a hard effort will yield the best results, but that's just me..... |
| 2016-06-07 11:33 AM in reply to: reecealan |
| 319 Sarasota, Florida | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency I am not comfortable without doing them at least once every couple of weeks. I'm still an inexperienced swimmer and find I have troubles pacing myself and often slow down and speed back up during a longer swim, and I also have an issue with breathing at various speeds where I will swallow air leading to stomach aches. Had I never done a long swim to realize this before a race it would have made the next 2 events painful, because of those reasons I like doing a long swim once a week. I also just enjoy a weekend morning at the beach and going for a long one for fun. |
| 2016-06-07 1:25 PM in reply to: nc452010 |
| 216 | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Depends where I am in the training cycle. I have a "build phase" and a "consolidation" phase. In the build phase, there's little long distance swimming, and a lot of interval training. In the consolidation phase, I start trying to lock in a pace for an upcoming race. For distance events (1 mile and over), the sustained distances get longer and longer as I probe the sustainability of the pace I think I can hold for the entire race. I won't attempt to go race pace for the full race distance, but I'll eventually (about two weeks pre-race) work up to ~70-80% of distance in a single swim, with the expectation that i should be able to get there without feeling excessively fatigued. Once I feel I have a sustainable pace ID'd, , I'll increase my workout frequency but reduce the distance per workout, doing almost all my swimming at that race pace in an attempt to imprint that stroke and tempo into my CNS. |
| 2016-06-07 2:20 PM in reply to: axteraa |
| 137 Birmingham, Alabama | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by davejustdave I'm gonna disagree with thos who say straight endurance swims are worthless for triathletes. I try to do at least one continuous long swim a week (by long, I mean 2000 yards or more) There is a HUGE difference both physically and mentally between swimming 2k solid at race pace with zero seconds rest (aside from th .5 seconds for a flip turn) and 2k yards at the same effort level but as 20x100 with 10 or 20 or even 5 seconds rest between 100s. Doing speed work is critical as well, just like in running, but the long ones make a big difference, IMO. For me, the results have been pretty clear. Let's say you can do that 2000 yards straight at a 1:45/100 pace. I guarantee you that doing 20x100 on 1:45 touching the wall at 1:35 is WAY more effective than doing that straight swim. Ok. I'll bite. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I'm just not a well seasoned swimmer and want to know...why? Why is it more effective to prepare for say a HIM swim of 1.2 miles by training in intervals? Would the same be true if you were swimming at the same pace for 1 x 2000 and the 20 x 100? I'm having a hard time understanding because training for other sports seems so different. I run intervals and do speedwork for running, but it might amount to 15% of a week's worth of running. I get that they are two very different sports, but why is it so much more beneficial to do intervals in swimming? |
| 2016-06-07 2:24 PM in reply to: nc452010 |
| 812 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Prior to IMTX, I was swimming 4500 yards 3x a week with masters team from Jan-May. I think I swam an 800 once during that time. Other than that, the 500 warmup was the longest interval of any workout. Last open water swim was at a 70.3 in early Nov. I swam 1:03 But, my calves tried to cramp up on me a little on the 2nd half of the swim. I think the continuous toe pointing was something my body was not used to. It was used to pushing off the wall every 25 yards. So just for the sake of that, it' probably be a good idea to hit open water a few times before a race. I was able to work them out without stopping, just flexing my tibia to stretch out the calves. Something to think about. |
| 2016-06-07 2:34 PM in reply to: marti038 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by marti038 I'm having a hard time understanding because training for other sports seems so different. I run intervals and do speedwork for running, but it might amount to 15% of a week's worth of running. I get that they are two very different sports, but why is it so much more beneficial to do intervals in swimming? It's not. Intervals (assume these are higher intensity blocks) are hugely beneficial in each sport. But in swimming, you can do more of them with less impact on the rest of your training and less chance of injury/setback (which can more than negate the positive training stimulus from intervals). Therefore, you are able to swim 'less' (time) because you swim 'more' (intensity). There are other benefits to more intervals in swimming, since it is so technique dependent, as well. |
| 2016-06-07 2:42 PM in reply to: Jet Black |
| 319 Sarasota, Florida | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by Jet Black Prior to IMTX, I was swimming 4500 yards 3x a week with masters team from Jan-May. I think I swam an 800 once during that time. Other than that, the 500 warmup was the longest interval of any workout. Last open water swim was at a 70.3 in early Nov. I swam 1:03 But, my calves tried to cramp up on me a little on the 2nd half of the swim. I think the continuous toe pointing was something my body was not used to. It was used to pushing off the wall every 25 yards. So just for the sake of that, it' probably be a good idea to hit open water a few times before a race. I was able to work them out without stopping, just flexing my tibia to stretch out the calves. Something to think about. That too. I tend to get leg cramps more often on extended swims vs. intervals. 1,000 yards straight is where I occasionally experience odd stuff. Not sure it's cause my stroke gets lazy or just endurance issue with no breaks. Good news is I can usually swim them out which doesn't make much sense. I read earlier this week, but agree the first 500 feels like a warm up to me getting everything relaxed and tuned in. So it's like the 500-1,000 is the most comfortable then if I haven't done a long swim in a while, around 1,000 I might get a surprise leg cramp or stomach ache. |
| 2016-06-07 3:24 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 89 | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by davejustdave I'm gonna disagree with thos who say straight endurance swims are worthless for triathletes. I try to do at least one continuous long swim a week (by long, I mean 2000 yards or more) There is a HUGE difference both physically and mentally between swimming 2k solid at race pace with zero seconds rest (aside from th .5 seconds for a flip turn) and 2k yards at the same effort level but as 20x100 with 10 or 20 or even 5 seconds rest between 100s. Doing speed work is critical as well, just like in running, but the long ones make a big difference, IMO. For me, the results have been pretty clear. The bolded is where you fall off the page. Again, there is nothing special about "triathlon swimming". Learning to have a faster swim (and there is quite a bit of learning vs. fitness in swimming) is the same principle for all swimming. Which is why everyone just does sets of 25s and OW swims have no value, because all swimming is the same once you get fit, right? |
| 2016-06-07 3:30 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency Originally posted by davejustdave Originally posted by Left Brain Which is why everyone just does sets of 25s and OW swims have no value, because all swimming is the same once you get fit, right? Originally posted by davejustdave I'm gonna disagree with thos who say straight endurance swims are worthless for triathletes. I try to do at least one continuous long swim a week (by long, I mean 2000 yards or more) There is a HUGE difference both physically and mentally between swimming 2k solid at race pace with zero seconds rest (aside from th .5 seconds for a flip turn) and 2k yards at the same effort level but as 20x100 with 10 or 20 or even 5 seconds rest between 100s. Doing speed work is critical as well, just like in running, but the long ones make a big difference, IMO. For me, the results have been pretty clear. The bolded is where you fall off the page. Again, there is nothing special about "triathlon swimming". Learning to have a faster swim (and there is quite a bit of learning vs. fitness in swimming) is the same principle for all swimming. Actually, nobody that knows anything about swim training just does sets of 25's.....that would be stupid. And getting fit has the least to do with fast swimming compared to learning to swim well......but carry on. If I remember right, you have at least some formal swim background.......you didn't learn to swim well by swimming long swims. Nobody does. Edited by Left Brain 2016-06-07 3:33 PM |
| 2016-06-07 4:15 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Long swim frequency
Originally posted by davejustdave I'm gonna disagree with thos who say straight endurance swims are worthless for triathletes. I try to do at least one continuous long swim a week (by long, I mean 2000 yards or more) There is a HUGE difference both physically and mentally between swimming 2k solid at race pace with zero seconds rest (aside from th .5 seconds for a flip turn) and 2k yards at the same effort level but as 20x100 with 10 or 20 or even 5 seconds rest between 100s. Doing speed work is critical as well, just like in running, but the long ones make a big difference, IMO. For me, the results have been pretty clear. Let's say you can do that 2000 yards straight at a 1:45/100 pace. I guarantee you that doing 20x100 on 1:45 touching the wall at 1:35 is WAY more effective than doing that straight swim. I bet you're right, at least for anyone without the fitness to swim 2000 with good form throughout (unless your suggesting that it will always be the case that form degrades on long swims, no matter one's fitness - but I don't think that's what you meant). So, as an adult onset swimmer, I've always been curious about how best to achieve the fitness that would make that video look the same at the beginning and end. The observation is that people have trouble holding their form, as you suggest above, but how best to avoid that breakdown? The common wisdom, reflected in this and many other threads, is that many short intervals will ultimately lead to the video NOT showing a breakdown of form - eventually even on that same 2,000m swim, yes? And that such an approach is a more efficient and effective way to develop long distance stamina than swimming long distances. I suppose that if say in marathon training I could do 22 one mile run repeats at HM pace with a short rest between each, I'd be as or more fit than if I did the fairly typical long 22 miler at M pace (with the obvious statement that such a workout would nearly kill me!). So, is that the difference? Swimming is low enough stress that we CAN do that equivalent workout in the pool? A related question is one that Sean mentioned with calf cramping at the end of his HIM swim. If you haven't done the long swim, aren't there things that feel different at the 2200th meter than they would at the 22nd 100m repeat that might be "trained out" by the intermittent long swim, as well? Is it also the case that a long swim is never useful, except to know what to expect? I just really want to understand why the long swim wouldn't condition muscles to have more stamina or ability to deal with the fatigue that leads to poor form. Or maybe it's that it does, but many short intervals are better at building stamina than long distance work (and we can't do that running without blowing our legs up from the stress, but can in swimming)? Maybe the answer is just to do intervals at a pace is slightly faster than you could hold for a long, continuous swim and that those will build the endurance you need as long as you do a big enough pile of them at a time? Ultimately, one should be able to have good form after 2000m, or else I'm just gonna throw in the towel for those early morning swims! Really appreciate any responses that try to break it down, as I've never quite been able to get my head around even the occasional long swim having zero fitness value. Thanks Matt
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