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2013-11-18 2:12 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by Left Brain

So....unlike every other sporting event that is on TV, for Ironman World Championship we have to be fed 30-40% human interest stories in order to make it interesting enough to be on TV in the first place?  I think that's crap.  Concentrate on the race, and the people who are racing to win the race.  If you need to cut away for some human interest drama then find some with one of the stars of the race.  If triathlon is going to ever be considered anything but a novelty, then it deserves better coverage to the masses then the complete dog and pony show that NBC puts out year after year.

And yeah, I know where to find the live feed if I feel like watching it, and I know how to work a dvr.....what's the point?  I already think triathlon is a serious sport and great to be involved in on many levels.  NBC treats it like a carnival act.

Yes...the Ironman coverage on NBC is very much a carnival act. It does not put ultimate focus on the pro race. It was not designed for you, and likely there is no point for you to watch it. Life will go on. ETA: It's not in NBC's best interest to promote triathlon or Ironman as they do other sports like football where the top pros get 99% of the attention. NBC has no vested interest in triathlon other than Kona once a year and the Olympics. I suppose the WTC could threaten NBC that they need to focus on more pro coverage or not renew their TV contract...but why on earth would they do that. The average man is the most important customer to the WTC. Pros do not drive the sport...the average joe (who makes more than $150k /pink) is who drives the sport. Ironman could go on even if pros never existed.

That's just ridiculous thinking.  I guess pro football doesn't drive all of these little league, high school, and college players and allo that goes with it.  I guess pro baseball has nothing to do with tens of thousands of amatuer baseball/softball leagues all over the country.  The problem with triathlon, in THIS country, is that we DON'T promote the pros and the pro races.  Ask Australia.

The WTC is NOT triathlon......sorry.  (and I'm a fan of WTC)



2013-11-18 2:13 PM
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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by Left Brain

So....unlike every other sporting event that is on TV, for Ironman World Championship we have to be fed 30-40% human interest stories in order to make it interesting enough to be on TV in the first place?  I think that's crap.  Concentrate on the race, and the people who are racing to win the race.  If you need to cut away for some human interest drama then find some with one of the stars of the race.  If triathlon is going to ever be considered anything but a novelty, then it deserves better coverage to the masses then the complete dog and pony show that NBC puts out year after year.

And yeah, I know where to find the live feed if I feel like watching it, and I know how to work a dvr.....what's the point?  I already think triathlon is a serious sport and great to be involved in on many levels.  NBC treats it like a carnival act.

Yes...the Ironman coverage on NBC is very much a carnival act. It does not put ultimate focus on the pro race. It was not designed for you, and likely there is no point for you to watch it. Life will go on.

Your kidding me, right?  I thought if I watched it I would die.

So, go ahead and tell me who the show is for, and what it does to push triathlon toward mainstream consciousness.  In fact, tell me what the NBC coverage of what is billed as the World Championship does for our sport at all?  Does NBC cover the last place foursome at the Masters?  Maybe go on and on about how one of them lost a kid and how remarkable it is that he was able to show up and finish in the lower half of the competitors.  Maybe show the kids name over and over written in golfballs on a green somewhere......that'd be cool, huh?

It's a race.  In fact, it's the World Championhsip at an epic distance.  Show the pros, let the public get to know them and what it takes to actually compete at that level.  Hell, I'd venture a guess that the majority of people who do triathlon and actually watched the show couldn't name 10% of the pros.  I guess that's good too.  Instead, the public gets garbage so that their general perception of triathlon is that show and the person at work who does triathlon and won't shut up about it......great.

 




Maybe you didn't catch my last edit, but until the sport is driven by professionals, I see no reason for them to be the focus of the coverage. 90% of the people who show up to race, can't name one single professional participating. In fact, most races people participate in (shorter distances) don't have a single pro participating in the race.

Ask the 3000 people who just did IMAZ, and ask them who won the race. I would bet that 80% don't know, nor do they care.

Until this type of mindset changes about the people who drive the sport, I don't see why television executives, nor advertisers should think any differently.

Edited by Jason N 2013-11-18 2:14 PM
2013-11-18 2:14 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...
There might be a future for Olympic distance races on TV... Maybe.

The IM distance is always going to be a Carnival Act to most of the general public. It has to be presented that way just to get the small audience that NBC gets now. If they were to show a "real" broadcast (like a normal sporting event) and focus solely on the people with a chance to win the numbers would be even worse.

Almost all of us played a stick or ball sport sometime in our life. Everyone can relate somehow to those sports. Most people are never going to get their heads around 2.4/112/26.2 that is why it has to be presented differently in order to draw any kind of audience.

For the record, I always DVR the broadcast so I can watch it in about an hour. I accept it for what it is and will always be.
2013-11-18 2:24 PM
in reply to: TriBoilermaker

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker There might be a future for Olympic distance races on TV... Maybe. The IM distance is always going to be a Carnival Act to most of the general public. It has to be presented that way just to get the small audience that NBC gets now. If they were to show a "real" broadcast (like a normal sporting event) and focus solely on the people with a chance to win the numbers would be even worse. Almost all of us played a stick or ball sport sometime in our life. Everyone can relate somehow to those sports. Most people are never going to get their heads around 2.4/112/26.2 that is why it has to be presented differently in order to draw any kind of audience. For the record, I always DVR the broadcast so I can watch it in about an hour. I accept it for what it is and will always be.

I don't think this is true.  How many people do you think watched the live converage of the New York City marathon?  Did you see any long coverage of anyone who wasn't a factor in the race?  Did you see any stupid social commentary that has nothing to do with the race? 

Do you think the millions of people who run won't watch a triathlon race with good RACE COVERAGE?   All of the sporting people in this country love to watch a good race with great athletes......and they do when they find one.  Most people can't sit through the garbage NBC throws out for IM World Championship.....ask around.

2013-11-18 2:40 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...
I'm not sure who you want me to ask? Most people that I would ask about any triathlon race wouldn't know what I was talking about or care.

I love Triathlon (all distances) but I recognize that in this country I'm in the vast minority. I'm thankful that Universal Sports has as much Triathlon coverage as they do. As I stated earlier I think there might be a future for Olympic distance coverage on main stream TV but not IM. It is just too small of a demographic that even know what the sport is. That is why NBC covers it the way they do. Just look at how many people on this thread (fans of the sport) like the NBC coverage.
2013-11-18 2:45 PM
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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...
Originally posted by Left Brain

Most people can't sit through the garbage NBC throws out for IM World Championship.....ask around.




I didn't ask, but others have commented saying the exact opposite to your opinion. As I said before, it's not meant for everyone. I fully understand with your kids participating at the pointy end of races, you have much more interest in seeing triathlon grow with more focus on competition. Some people couldn't care less.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4858318;sb=post_latest_...

ETA: for other sports like basketball and football. Heck yes...focus all on the pros. I don't want to watch human interest stories during coverage of the NBA finals or the Super Bowl. Pro basketball and pro football are billion dollar industries because of the pros. Triathlon is not a growing industry because of the pros. If it were, they would pay them more than a nickel.

Edited by Jason N 2013-11-18 2:47 PM


2013-11-18 2:53 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

\

Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by Left Brain Most people can't sit through the garbage NBC throws out for IM World Championship.....ask around.
I didn't ask, but others have commented saying the exact opposite to your opinion. As I said before, it's not meant for everyone. I fully understand with your kids participating at the pointy end of races, you have much more interest in seeing triathlon grow with more focus on competition. Some people couldn't care less. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4858318;sb=post_latest_...

I didn't ask around either.  But my daughters, wife, and I enjoy the NBC show.  They get enough of the pros to see "real racing", and enough human interest, and enough age group action.  It's entertainment.  No way - no way - do they sit through TDF type coverage of bike racing.

Note that Ironman Kona is probably the only race which has regular Joes as well as special-interest people racing with the pros.  No Hines Ward at the Masters. No Gordon Ramsey at a NASCAR race.  No old guy pushing his disabled son in a wheelchair at TDF. No old nuns on TV playing football (although I'd watch that for sure). And there's no way I personally, or many other amateur athletes, will ever be at a "Word Championship" if not for Kona. So yes, I want to see all that on TV coverage of Kona.

2013-11-18 3:06 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

then don't call it the ironman world championships. Call it, tragic stories of people exercising for a long time kinda slow.

Anecdotal example. I watched the USA Olympic trials of curling. I don't curl. I don't know anyone who curls. I don't really care about curling. I do like sports and competition. They had an analyst explaining the sport and what was happening, and I enjoyed it. Why can we not have this for the triathlon world championships.

2013-11-18 3:11 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...
Originally posted by dmiller5

then don't call it the ironman world championships. Call it, tragic stories of people exercising for a long time kinda slow.

Anecdotal example. I watched the USA Olympic trials of curling. I don't curl. I don't know anyone who curls. I don't really care about curling. I do like sports and competition. They had an analyst explaining the sport and what was happening, and I enjoyed it. Why can we not have this for the triathlon world championships.


And what do you suppose the ratings were for that curling competition? We could have that for Kona, and you would get about as many people watching it as curling.
2013-11-18 3:13 PM
in reply to: TriBoilermaker

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker
Originally posted by dmiller5

then don't call it the ironman world championships. Call it, tragic stories of people exercising for a long time kinda slow.

Anecdotal example. I watched the USA Olympic trials of curling. I don't curl. I don't know anyone who curls. I don't really care about curling. I do like sports and competition. They had an analyst explaining the sport and what was happening, and I enjoyed it. Why can we not have this for the triathlon world championships.

And what do you suppose the ratings were for that curling competition? We could have that for Kona, and you would get about as many people watching it as curling.

What is your point? I'd rather have fewer people and watch an actual sport than turn it into a reality tv show

2013-11-18 3:16 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker
Originally posted by dmiller5

then don't call it the ironman world championships. Call it, tragic stories of people exercising for a long time kinda slow.

Anecdotal example. I watched the USA Olympic trials of curling. I don't curl. I don't know anyone who curls. I don't really care about curling. I do like sports and competition. They had an analyst explaining the sport and what was happening, and I enjoyed it. Why can we not have this for the triathlon world championships.

And what do you suppose the ratings were for that curling competition? We could have that for Kona, and you would get about as many people watching it as curling.

What is your point? I'd rather have fewer people and watch an actual sport than turn it into a reality tv show


My point is that the ratings matter. That is why NBC does the broadcast the way they do. If they had Greg Welch giving blow by blow details like the IronmanLive broadcast it would last for one year and then it would be gone. There isn't enough interest for that kind of coverage. That is why it's on Universal Sports and not the major networks.


2013-11-18 3:16 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...
Originally posted by dmiller5

then don't call it the ironman world championships. Call it, tragic stories of people exercising for a long time kinda slow.

Anecdotal example. I watched the USA Olympic trials of curling. I don't curl. I don't know anyone who curls. I don't really care about curling. I do like sports and competition. They had an analyst explaining the sport and what was happening, and I enjoyed it. Why can we not have this for the triathlon world championships.




You don't have to call it the world championships if you don't want to. The "world championship" phrase added to Ironman is strictly self proclaimed. There is no governing body of triathlon that has legitimized the WTC's claim to that title.
2013-11-18 3:22 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

 

Not sure why people are arguing about a TV show, either you liked or you didn't!

 

Americans probably don't watch it as much because we have no Americans at the top of the fields anymore, no big names from USA racing!!!

2013-11-18 3:25 PM
in reply to: TriBoilermaker

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker
Originally posted by dmiller5

then don't call it the ironman world championships. Call it, tragic stories of people exercising for a long time kinda slow.

Anecdotal example. I watched the USA Olympic trials of curling. I don't curl. I don't know anyone who curls. I don't really care about curling. I do like sports and competition. They had an analyst explaining the sport and what was happening, and I enjoyed it. Why can we not have this for the triathlon world championships.

And what do you suppose the ratings were for that curling competition? We could have that for Kona, and you would get about as many people watching it as curling.

What is your point? I'd rather have fewer people and watch an actual sport than turn it into a reality tv show

My point is that the ratings matter. That is why NBC does the broadcast the way they do. If they had Greg Welch giving blow by blow details like the IronmanLive broadcast it would last for one year and then it would be gone. There isn't enough interest for that kind of coverage. That is why it's on Universal Sports and not the major networks.

Purity of the sport is more important to me than ratings.

2013-11-18 3:29 PM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

Originally posted by jford2309

 

Not sure why people are arguing about a TV show, either you liked or you didn't!

 

Americans probably don't watch it as much because we have no Americans at the top of the fields anymore, no big names from USA racing!!!

Starykowicz, Andrew

Rapp, Jordan 

2013-11-18 3:30 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

1. I thought it was cool seeing the dolphins swim along side the swimmers.

2. Do pros get to have support teams? It looked like Crowie had someone hand him a new wheel and then push him? I did not think that was allowed.



2013-11-18 3:47 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by Left Brain Most people can't sit through the garbage NBC throws out for IM World Championship.....ask around.
I didn't ask, but others have commented saying the exact opposite to your opinion. As I said before, it's not meant for everyone. I fully understand with your kids participating at the pointy end of races, you have much more interest in seeing triathlon grow with more focus on competition. Some people couldn't care less. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4858318;sb=post_latest_... ETA: for other sports like basketball and football. Heck yes...focus all on the pros. I don't want to watch human interest stories during coverage of the NBA finals or the Super Bowl. Pro basketball and pro football are billion dollar industries because of the pros. Triathlon is not a growing industry because of the pros. If it were, they would pay them more than a nickel.

But it can be, and in my mind that is how you grow the sport.  It's the reason alot more people would have watched Armstrong....and lacking him, WTC will take some soccer player with a bunch of tatoos who is still trying to learn how to swim.  Excellent......more circus acts for the carnival when you have real athletes with interesting stories who could become names that people recognize and want to watch for their athletic feats.....you know, kinda like any real sport.

2013-11-18 4:14 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker
Originally posted by dmiller5

then don't call it the ironman world championships. Call it, tragic stories of people exercising for a long time kinda slow.

Anecdotal example. I watched the USA Olympic trials of curling. I don't curl. I don't know anyone who curls. I don't really care about curling. I do like sports and competition. They had an analyst explaining the sport and what was happening, and I enjoyed it. Why can we not have this for the triathlon world championships.

And what do you suppose the ratings were for that curling competition? We could have that for Kona, and you would get about as many people watching it as curling.

What is your point? I'd rather have fewer people and watch an actual sport than turn it into a reality tv show

My point is that the ratings matter. That is why NBC does the broadcast the way they do. If they had Greg Welch giving blow by blow details like the IronmanLive broadcast it would last for one year and then it would be gone. There isn't enough interest for that kind of coverage. That is why it's on Universal Sports and not the major networks.

Purity of the sport is more important to me than ratings.




This is one reason why you are not working for NBC.
2013-11-18 4:26 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by Left Brain Most people can't sit through the garbage NBC throws out for IM World Championship.....ask around.
I didn't ask, but others have commented saying the exact opposite to your opinion. As I said before, it's not meant for everyone. I fully understand with your kids participating at the pointy end of races, you have much more interest in seeing triathlon grow with more focus on competition. Some people couldn't care less. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4858318;sb=post_latest_... ETA: for other sports like basketball and football. Heck yes...focus all on the pros. I don't want to watch human interest stories during coverage of the NBA finals or the Super Bowl. Pro basketball and pro football are billion dollar industries because of the pros. Triathlon is not a growing industry because of the pros. If it were, they would pay them more than a nickel.

But it can be, and in my mind that is how you grow the sport.  It's the reason alot more people would have watched Armstrong....and lacking him, WTC will take some soccer player with a bunch of tatoos who is still trying to learn how to swim.  Excellent......more circus acts for the carnival when you have real athletes with interesting stories who could become names that people recognize and want to watch for their athletic feats.....you know, kinda like any real sport.




NBC isn't in the Triathlon business. They're in the TV business. If the circus sells, they sell the circus. It's not their job to grow it into a "real sport", it's their job to get the highest ratings they can. They know triathlon is never going to be the NFL or NBA or hockey or even soccer when it comes to a TV spectator sport. They have ZERO incentive to try and drum up interest in the pros or the hard core competition aspect of it, to grow the sport. If it grew by 5 fold it would still be a tiny blip in their world.

People complain about all the fluff during the Olympics too, but NBC learned decades ago the ratings go up when it's presented that way. To change their model would be flushing money down the toilet.
2013-11-18 4:40 PM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

Originally posted by jford2309

1. I thought it was cool seeing the dolphins swim along side the swimmers.

2. Do pros get to have support teams? It looked like Crowie had someone hand him a new wheel and then push him? I did not think that was allowed.

neutral service

2013-11-18 5:00 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

I really enjoyed the coverage, personally.

I got into triathlon because I was inspired by some friends who got into tri's several years ago. Up until that point, I always thought of triathlon as an elite sport for highly elite athletes. One of the things I continually marveled at during my own Ironman experience was the number of "average Joe's" i was surrounded by.

For me, the pro's are awe-inspiring freaks of nature, and I relish in their intensity, and competitive spirit, but the coverage of the regular AG'ers is what gave me goosebumps:
- When the lady in the wheelchair didn't make the bike cutoff, and you could see the devestation written across her face.
- When the father/daughter duo DNF'd at mile 11, after months of training and previous failed attempts.
- When the lady with the prosthetic leg finished 47 seconds after the cutoff.

That's why I watched.

I'm no pro, and never will be, so these are the people I can relate to.
Ironman Triathlon is an ultra-endurance sport, and will likely never be mainstream. That's just fine by me.



2013-11-18 5:05 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...
Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by jford2309

1. I thought it was cool seeing the dolphins swim along side the swimmers.

2. Do pros get to have support teams? It looked like Crowie had someone hand him a new wheel and then push him? I did not think that was allowed.

neutral service




And from the looks of the area, that flat happened in the first 3 miles of the race so Crowie was rather lucky that neutral support was so close. I think he was part of the lead swim pack, so it made sense that a neutral vehicle was close behind him (and the lead group). If he came out of the water behind with Kienle, I wouldn't be so confident that a support vehicle would have been in the area.
2013-11-18 5:35 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

 

I don't think they are as worried about ratings as everyone is saying. For one this was not a big TV time slot for NBC, any other Saturday at that time you could expect to see an infomercial. Also if you watched the commercials (yes some of us still do not have a DVR) you noticed that it was the same commercials over and over again from the same vendors. I doubt this is a big money maker for NBC. The commercials were all aimed at the users of this website, not at the general public, so they could easily cater the show more to the triathlete instead of spending 15 mins interviewing someone in their house and 30 seconds on the women's run. 

2013-11-18 5:35 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

I just chalk it up to TV executives trying to get a pulse of what's popular and over doing it.

I know you all know what I mean.  Most movies sequels?  Take the best of the previous movie and triple/quadruple it.  In the Hangover, Chan was a small but funny character.  In the sequels?  They make him one of the main guys.  All Chan, all the time.  Most sequels suck unless they go an entirely different direction.

TV show Heros?  All the plot twists were exciting season one, but then they tried to outdo themselves and after a couple more seasons?  No one cared and the show is pulled.

Survivor has all the reunion shows because if people liked Colton or Rupart in their first season(s), they have to show MORE Colton/Rupert because they think that's what people want.

So, for IM Kona.  Someone tried some fluff pieces of someone who had cancer and it touched people.  It was probably JUST ENOUGH of a touching story.  But then some exec says, if 5 minutes was that good, wouldn't 50% of our coverage dedicated to fluff pieces be that much better?

I figure after a while, that stuff won't pull the ratings and they will start shifting it to a different direction.  Such is life.

 

2013-11-18 5:36 PM
in reply to: RollTideTri

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Subject: RE: For those of us who missed the NBC Ironman Kona coverage today...

Originally posted by RollTideTri
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by Left Brain Most people can't sit through the garbage NBC throws out for IM World Championship.....ask around.
I didn't ask, but others have commented saying the exact opposite to your opinion. As I said before, it's not meant for everyone. I fully understand with your kids participating at the pointy end of races, you have much more interest in seeing triathlon grow with more focus on competition. Some people couldn't care less. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4858318;sb=post_latest_... ETA: for other sports like basketball and football. Heck yes...focus all on the pros. I don't want to watch human interest stories during coverage of the NBA finals or the Super Bowl. Pro basketball and pro football are billion dollar industries because of the pros. Triathlon is not a growing industry because of the pros. If it were, they would pay them more than a nickel.

But it can be, and in my mind that is how you grow the sport.  It's the reason alot more people would have watched Armstrong....and lacking him, WTC will take some soccer player with a bunch of tatoos who is still trying to learn how to swim.  Excellent......more circus acts for the carnival when you have real athletes with interesting stories who could become names that people recognize and want to watch for their athletic feats.....you know, kinda like any real sport.

NBC isn't in the Triathlon business. They're in the TV business. If the circus sells, they sell the circus. It's not their job to grow it into a "real sport", it's their job to get the highest ratings they can. They know triathlon is never going to be the NFL or NBA or hockey or even soccer when it comes to a TV spectator sport. They have ZERO incentive to try and drum up interest in the pros or the hard core competition aspect of it, to grow the sport. If it grew by 5 fold it would still be a tiny blip in their world. People complain about all the fluff during the Olympics too, but NBC learned decades ago the ratings go up when it's presented that way. To change their model would be flushing money down the toilet.

I agree completely. But WTC IS in the triathlon business, and they can sell their race to a network that does want to cover the race and the legitimate athlete stars of that race.  But instead, we get Hines Ward and some chef that walks most of the run......riveting.

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2011-10-06 5:31 AM audiojan

Ironman Kona on NBC?

Started by mrbigheado
Views: 2015 Posts: 8

2009-10-01 7:10 PM titeloops

Missed NBC coverage of Hawaii

Started by popit
Views: 1546 Posts: 11

2006-12-14 7:25 PM ChineseDemocracy
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