Marathon tougher than HIM ???

Marathon is much harder.  Then again, I did the marathon 6 weeks after the HIM and never ran further than 16 miles training. 

I'd rather do a HIM than a marathon.  If you told me to do a HIM every weekend for a month, I think I could manage.  I wouldn't even attempt marathons on back to back weeks let alone 4 weeks in a row.

I think most of the notion is due to the pounding of running.  The high impact nature leads to more perceived pain and higher recovery costs compared to substituting the other 13.1 miles of running with 56 miles of biking and 1.2 miles of swimming.  For this reason, I actually think that for me, a marathon is tougher than an IM.  Because I'm not in good enough shape to run the entire marathon in an IM, and the *running* I do accomplish isn't nearly as high impact as a stand alone marathon.  It resembles more of a shuffle or a jog which doesn't create as much pounding.

Granted, you can be more tired or exhausted after a HIM or IM due to the greater number of hours...but the pain/pounding part of running trumps that IMO when you talk about *tougher*.

People who are lighter, or don't take as much pounding may feel differently though.

That's because it's boring as hell and it sucks.

Pick a better course. 

If you are well trained and go 'all-out', the marathon is definitely, 100% harder on your body, by a fair margin.

There are essentially zero pro/elite triathletes who will even race a single marathon for a 'tuneup' for even an IM race distance, nor will they even attempt to race even a single marathon during their racing year.

In contrast, you will see a fair number of pros race multiple HIMs in a short period of time, and even race a HIM 10-14 weeks before the Kona World Championships as a 'tuneup' race. They would never, ever do a marathon as a tuneup in contrast.

Even elite marathoners race less than a few marathons per year because it's so physically tough on their bodies.

I will add that training logistics and training time are significantly harder for the HIM than training for the marathon, but the race day event itself is much harder on the body as a marathon, even for the best marathoners.

One would think that someone who touts being an engineer seemingly every other post would know to control the variables. If you were in similar shape, that 1:34 HM projects to about a 3:18 marathon. Quite a bit faster than 3:50. So yeah, "sort of jogged it" may be an appropriate description of the marathon, but would also make for a poor comparison seeing how in the HIM you tried doing your best. How hard you go in relation to your best effort for the race matters quite a bit.

Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by 3mar I'm going to say for me personally the Marathon was easier. I did my only marathon a while back and I wasn't really competitive back then so I sort of jogged it (finished 3:50). It was in New York and after I had no problem walking across the park back the the UES where I lived and bar hopped with my friends till midnight. I personally go on autopilot for any long distance in any one sport. My last half where I ran hard (1:34) I thought was way worse and I felt like crap for a week after. Same for the HIM (4:59), since the individual distances were shorter, I worked a lot harder. I wasn't terribly fatigued after that one either (I was still worse off on my last HM) but if I had to choose, I'd say it was harder, but not as hard as a shorter race. That's just me though. Anything shorter than a HM I see as something you have to "race" and therefore i work 10x as hard. Anything longer I just sort of chill out.

One would think that someone who touts being an engineer seemingly every other post would know to control the variables. If you were in similar shape, that 1:34 HM projects to about a 3:18 marathon. Quite a bit faster than 3:50. So yeah, "sort of jogged it" may be an appropriate description of the marathon, but would also make for a poor comparison seeing how in the HIM you tried doing your best. How hard you go in relation to your best effort for the race matters quite a bit.

Oh totally. That's why I said for me personally. I chill out on long races making them easier for me. Just my experience. Not to say it would apply to anyone else.

Well, that was kind of the point. It's not a good comparison even for the individual who did it.

Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by 3mar I'm going to say for me personally the Marathon was easier. I did my only marathon a while back and I wasn't really competitive back then so I sort of jogged it (finished 3:50). It was in New York and after I had no problem walking across the park back the the UES where I lived and bar hopped with my friends till midnight. I personally go on autopilot for any long distance in any one sport. My last half where I ran hard (1:34) I thought was way worse and I felt like crap for a week after. Same for the HIM (4:59), since the individual distances were shorter, I worked a lot harder. I wasn't terribly fatigued after that one either (I was still worse off on my last HM) but if I had to choose, I'd say it was harder, but not as hard as a shorter race. That's just me though. Anything shorter than a HM I see as something you have to "race" and therefore i work 10x as hard. Anything longer I just sort of chill out.

One would think that someone who touts being an engineer seemingly every other post would know to control the variables. If you were in similar shape, that 1:34 HM projects to about a 3:18 marathon. Quite a bit faster than 3:50. So yeah, "sort of jogged it" may be an appropriate description of the marathon, but would also make for a poor comparison seeing how in the HIM you tried doing your best. How hard you go in relation to your best effort for the race matters quite a bit.

Oh totally. That's why I said for me personally. I chill out on long races making them easier for me. Just my experience. Not to say it would apply to anyone else.

Well, that was kind of the point. It's not a good comparison even for the individual who did it.

Well, not to totally highjack the thread, but here's the deal. Perhaps I wasn't 100% clear. My marathon was done quite a few years ago and at that time I certainly wasn't in 1:34 HM shape, probably closer to 1:45. So yes, I didn't push too hard, but not as bad as it sounds. The point I was trying to make is for shorter distances, you tend to spend your time in a higher zone. For me 5 hours at Z2 is easier than 50 minutes at Z4. I see the level of effort in a marathon as a lower sustained effort than a HIM simply because, although the HIM is longer, the individual segments are shorter causing (at least me) to push harder for those, so I end up in a race that is longer and at a higher sustained effort. It's just my personal opinion and how I react to racing.

The effort you did in that marathon was lower than the HIM. The effort of a well raced marathon is going to be higher than that, closer to the HIM and maybe maybe a bit more so. Exactly where they all fall depends on the strengths of the individual. For you, racing the marathon would have been somewhere in Z3, not Z2. And given your increase in run fitness it's likely to be quite high in Z3. Plus there is the matter of the additional running being more time in a weight bearing activity. Even at a similar effort level, the eccentric loading of the landing makes for more strain on the body. So the HIM can still drain more energy, but the additional running causes more soreness. Controlling as best one can for "well raced". Backing off on either and trying to use it in the comparison is what splits away from the original question, much more so than anything else that has come up.

I've had people tell me that a marathon is even harder physically than a full IM.  That sounds counter-intuitive, but the logic is that your pace for the marathon in the IM is way more relaxed than what you would do in an open full.  

I don't know if I agree with that, but I definitely think running 26.2 miles at a moderate pace is way harder than a HIM.  Your pace is so moderate in a HIM in comparison, and you're not beating up the same muscles constantly.  Heck I can ride for 100 miles and be good within two days.  If I run a full, then I'm at least taking one week off for recovery.

Raced both over the years, with the HIMs more recently.  Marathon was much tougher on me.  I always say my marathons weren't half over until 20 miles in.  That first 20 was usually enjoyable, even when I was on race pace.  I had to dig a lot deeper after 20, and especially after 22, miles than even the last 4 miles of a hammer down HIM.  Granted, the last 2 miles of my last HIM were VERY painful, but it was a qualitatively different pain and the recovery took less time.

Same thing with training.  One of the reasons I really like multi-sport is that I always feel like I'm one or two workouts short of where I'd like to be in each sport each week.  What **I think** that has translated to is a lower risk of injury in training for a similar or better level of age adjusted performance, tri as compared to run.  When I do a run focus (although I really really enjoy these), it's almost as though I have too much time available and push juuuuuuuust over the edge into some minor tweak.  That and, though I don't have a great "build" for a triathlete, I have an even less optimal pure runner's build!

Perhaps if I ran a marathon now it would be different, but I suspect my younger self recovered better than the current bald version!  (OK, I was bald even back then, but you know what I mean).

Matt

Definitely true for me in the HIM distance (can't speak to an IM).  My open HM pace is faster, of course, than the HIM pace - but not for lack of effort, so for me it's not as "relaxed" as it is unable to go that fast.  By the time I get to the run, I'm fatigued enough that I can't actually hold my open pace.  So, while the exertion feels pretty close to the same (or at least the pain level!), I just don't have the CV or muscular reserve left to hit that pace.  That has made my HIM recovery similar to or even less than a HM PR attempt, for example.

Similar to my above post, where in training I not only don't have the time to run all the time, but I'm also carrying a bit of fatigue that keeps my run paces tamped down a bit from where I'd be in a run only training block (and also the total intensity).

iow, triathlon tires me out in a very protective way! 

Matt