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% of FTP for a Sprint (Page 9)
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 2016-04-12 8:56 AM in reply to: CycloneVM |
Extreme Veteran  5722   |  Subject: RE: % of FTP for a SprintOriginally posted by CycloneVM Originally posted by Jason N Do you follow the power targets on your workouts religiously...even if you have more in the tank? Agree with Marc...nothing in these files indicates that your FTP has gone up. Usually you will see an increase in power as the reps go on if your FTP is underestimated. Hang on...are you not supposed to stick to the power targets as closely as you can? I had assumed that these power workouts were written that way - hit X target in each workout and see benefits. Some workouts end up being harder than others, but taken together they present the framework for better fitness. While I'm certain this is true, have I been incorrect in the power target assumption and should be doing each of these intervals with a "greater than" sign in front of the targets? If that's the case, why even have targets to begin with? You could write the entire workout as "go hard, then go easy, then go hard again" and just change the durations. Last, how would this apply to one of the "Day 2" workouts in the JorgeM plan, which step between three or four target power numbers (typically something like 95/90/85/80 and then back up) for the duration of the workout? You guys have a lot of useful information, but are sometimes confusing in its presentation  You are right that you should follow the prescribed efforts. The goal isn't to make you puke and fall off the bike. But there are workouts that you know will be taxing and can use to get a good idea of where you are. I very specifically said "put everything you have in the last one". If the presentation is confusing, sometimes just asking the questions, as you did makes it better for everyone. |
| 2016-04-12 9:07 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by Left Brain Running intervals are the same. If it says do your 400's at :65 with 1 minutes rest, that doesn't mean do some of them at :58 and be happy that you "pushed it". Train smart. Tell me, how many people do you know running their 400m intervals on :65 ? :-) |
| 2016-04-12 9:12 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain Running intervals are the same. If it says do your 400's at :65 with 1 minutes rest, that doesn't mean do some of them at :58 and be happy that you "pushed it". Tell me, how many people do you know running their 400m intervals on :65 ? :-) Train smart. All 3 of the kids I work with during track season on speed days. (I don't make the workouts, I run them for a coach who is off site) They are all sub 4:20 milers working toward 4 minutes. You know my point......you do them at the prescribed effort, it doesn't matter what the interval is. I'll walk them off the track if they want to play "lets see how fast I am today". There is never any "put all you have into this last one"....but I understand that cycling and running are not the same in that regard. I don't have any problem with that with cycling. Edited by Left Brain 2016-04-12 9:15 AM |
| 2016-04-12 9:19 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain Running intervals are the same. If it says do your 400's at :65 with 1 minutes rest, that doesn't mean do some of them at :58 and be happy that you "pushed it". Tell me, how many people do you know running their 400m intervals on :65 ? :-) Train smart. All 3 of the kids I work with during track season on speed days. (I don't make the workouts, I run them for a coach who is off site) They are all sub 4:20 milers working toward 4 minutes. You know my point......you do them at the prescribed effort, it doesn't matter what the interval is. I'll walk them off the track if they want to play "lets see how fast I am today". I get what you mean, but FYI 65s for 400m is the prescribed Jack Daniel's 400m repeat pace for a 28m:36 10km runner or 3:56 miler 58s is off the chart. 7s on a 400 is 17.5s on a km and probably crosses zones for most runners at the high end So yes, there is wiggle room within zones, but it's surprising how narrow it actually is. There isn't 7s on 400m for most of us if we are doing hard intervals I think we agree....wow.....I just realize what I said :-) Edited by marcag 2016-04-12 9:32 AM |
| 2016-04-12 9:33 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Well that's all great.....they can do 65's X 6 with no problem (one of them has a 4:09 mile) , but they can't run 3:56 for a mile, yet. Jr. ran an open 400 in 49.2 at his last meet.....first time trying... and has a 1:53 800.....his mile time does not add up yet. As the coach says......they can run faster miles then they've ran......but they have to be taught that they can. They fall off even more at 5 and 10K. They're young and don't know anything about Jack Daniels, or any other bourbon. No offense, but I'm going to take this guys word based on who he has trained.
Edited by Left Brain 2016-04-12 9:35 AM |
| 2016-04-12 9:53 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
812 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Jet Black The highest I've seen on the bike is 165. That was at the end of my last FTP test. I got into the 170's running during a vo2 Max test. Originally posted by 3mar What is your max HR? Originally posted by marcag Sounds good. I'll do that on Wednesday. Originally posted by 3mar Do 6x4@105% with 45sec rest and report back. You'll get a good workout and you'll know which way to go. Put everything you have into the last one. Originally posted by Jason N I use my power targets as minimums. So whatever if my target is 230, I will be 230+ the entire time. I normally end up about 5 watts higher than target for any given interval. To marc's point; exactly, they were hard, but certainly not that hard. Do you follow the power targets on your workouts religiously...even if you have more in the tank? Agree with Marc...nothing in these files indicates that your FTP has gone up. Usually you will see an increase in power as the reps go on if your FTP is underestimated. you need to do some group rides with some racers, that will get your heartrate higher This is where I was going with this, but your max even running is a lot lower than mine so I'm not sure this will be true. I'm guessing that you don't know how to suffer on the bike yet. You should hit that 165 at minimum on your 2:30 intervals, but you're not even hitting 160 on the rides you posted. And yes, get yourself a road bike and come join us on club rides. You'll be shocked at what your HR hits. |
| 2016-04-12 9:57 AM in reply to: 0 |
Veteran 276 | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Thanks for the clarification, folks. I guess I misread the intent of Jason's post about having some left in the tank, plus most pure bike folks are so geared up on suffering (see what I did there?) that you just never know if you are suffering the proper amount  Edited by CycloneVM 2016-04-12 9:58 AM |
| 2016-04-12 10:16 AM in reply to: Jet Black |
1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by Jet Black And yes, get yourself a road bike and come join us on club rides. You'll be shocked at what your HR hits. If I buy a road bike, I'll be suffering for sure...but it will be at the hands of my wife. |
| 2016-04-12 11:19 AM in reply to: CycloneVM |
| Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by CycloneVM Thanks for the clarification, folks. I guess I misread the intent of Jason's post about having some left in the tank, plus most pure bike folks are so geared up on suffering (see what I did there?) that you just never know if you are suffering the proper amount Yes, sticking to the plan is the idea, but I was referencing how you should know if you are seeing a bump in FTP based on workouts and not specifically an all out test. Having some left in the tank should have been phrased more like..."you're not as gassed as you normally are with this workout." Often times when I'm seeing a bump in FTP, usually when coming out of off season, I know how hard a 5x5' workout is supposed to be. So if my target is say X watts and it feels too easy, I'll bump it up to X+10 watts and see how that goes...or you'll see power rising over each 5' interval instead of a flat line. It's not to say that I'm trying to give an all out effort when I shouldn't be...just trying to align my RPE properly. Marc and I didn't see any of those type of indicators in the OPs last two workout files...but it's possible he was sticking closely to the targets rather than adjusting for RPE. But he's new to power...so these kind of on the fly tweaks comes with experience. |
| 2016-04-12 11:36 AM in reply to: Jet Black |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by Jet Black Definitely be careful stating stuff like this on a beginner site. Individual HR is a bell curve not everyone achieves the same HR levels, but doesn't mean they are slower. My 20' LTHR avg is around 166, once I get around 170 I don't have very long to go! My run LT is 10bpm higher. I know someone that only gets a 20' average in the mid 150's and he can crankout a 350w FTP and often places in bike races. I use to train with a guy that had a 20bpm difference between a bike and run LT test 180/160. Originally posted by dmiller5 This is where I was going with this, but your max even running is a lot lower than mine so I'm not sure this will be true. I'm guessing that you don't know how to suffer on the bike yet. You should hit that 165 at minimum on your 2:30 intervals, but you're not even hitting 160 on the rides you posted. And yes, get yourself a road bike and come join us on club rides. You'll be shocked at what your HR hits. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Jet Black The highest I've seen on the bike is 165. That was at the end of my last FTP test. I got into the 170's running during a vo2 Max test. Originally posted by 3mar What is your max HR? Originally posted by marcag Sounds good. I'll do that on Wednesday. Originally posted by 3mar Do 6x4@105% with 45sec rest and report back. You'll get a good workout and you'll know which way to go. Put everything you have into the last one. Originally posted by Jason N I use my power targets as minimums. So whatever if my target is 230, I will be 230+ the entire time. I normally end up about 5 watts higher than target for any given interval. To marc's point; exactly, they were hard, but certainly not that hard. Do you follow the power targets on your workouts religiously...even if you have more in the tank? Agree with Marc...nothing in these files indicates that your FTP has gone up. Usually you will see an increase in power as the reps go on if your FTP is underestimated. you need to do some group rides with some racers, that will get your heartrate higher |
| 2016-04-12 12:07 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by Donto Keep in mind that the statement was not made in absolute terms, but in reference to an earlier post in the quote. It's supposed to be read in context with the previously posted information.Originally posted by Jet Black Definitely be careful stating stuff like this on a beginner site. Individual HR is a bell curve not everyone achieves the same HR levels, but doesn't mean they are slower. My 20' LTHR avg is around 166, once I get around 170 I don't have very long to go! My run LT is 10bpm higher. I know someone that only gets a 20' average in the mid 150's and he can crankout a 350w FTP and often places in bike races. I use to train with a guy that had a 20bpm difference between a bike and run LT test 180/160. Originally posted by dmiller5 This is where I was going with this, but your max even running is a lot lower than mine so I'm not sure this will be true. I'm guessing that you don't know how to suffer on the bike yet. You should hit that 165 at minimum on your 2:30 intervals, but you're not even hitting 160 on the rides you posted. And yes, get yourself a road bike and come join us on club rides. You'll be shocked at what your HR hits. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Jet Black The highest I've seen on the bike is 165. That was at the end of my last FTP test. I got into the 170's running during a vo2 Max test. Originally posted by 3mar What is your max HR? Originally posted by marcag Sounds good. I'll do that on Wednesday. Originally posted by 3mar Do 6x4@105% with 45sec rest and report back. You'll get a good workout and you'll know which way to go. Put everything you have into the last one. Originally posted by Jason N I use my power targets as minimums. So whatever if my target is 230, I will be 230+ the entire time. I normally end up about 5 watts higher than target for any given interval. To marc's point; exactly, they were hard, but certainly not that hard. Do you follow the power targets on your workouts religiously...even if you have more in the tank? Agree with Marc...nothing in these files indicates that your FTP has gone up. Usually you will see an increase in power as the reps go on if your FTP is underestimated. you need to do some group rides with some racers, that will get your heartrate higher ETA: The 165 comes from 2 posts up and was stated to be in an FTP test, so 20' long. An earlier linked workout involving 2:30 intervals did not hit 160 in any of them. That's a bit low in the context of hitting 165 in the 20' test seeing how the 2:30 intervals are set up for VO2 max emphasis. I think it's still in the learning curve of establishing FTP and learning the workouts by power, but if Sean wants to talk smack before their next ride together I won't stand in the way. Edited by brigby1 2016-04-12 12:32 PM |
| 2016-04-12 1:15 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
| 812 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Donto Keep in mind that the statement was not made in absolute terms, but in reference to an earlier post in the quote. It's supposed to be read in context with the previously posted information.Originally posted by Jet Black Definitely be careful stating stuff like this on a beginner site. Individual HR is a bell curve not everyone achieves the same HR levels, but doesn't mean they are slower. My 20' LTHR avg is around 166, once I get around 170 I don't have very long to go! My run LT is 10bpm higher. I know someone that only gets a 20' average in the mid 150's and he can crankout a 350w FTP and often places in bike races. I use to train with a guy that had a 20bpm difference between a bike and run LT test 180/160. Originally posted by dmiller5 This is where I was going with this, but your max even running is a lot lower than mine so I'm not sure this will be true. I'm guessing that you don't know how to suffer on the bike yet. You should hit that 165 at minimum on your 2:30 intervals, but you're not even hitting 160 on the rides you posted. And yes, get yourself a road bike and come join us on club rides. You'll be shocked at what your HR hits. Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Jet Black The highest I've seen on the bike is 165. That was at the end of my last FTP test. I got into the 170's running during a vo2 Max test. Originally posted by 3mar What is your max HR? Originally posted by marcag Sounds good. I'll do that on Wednesday. Originally posted by 3mar Do 6x4@105% with 45sec rest and report back. You'll get a good workout and you'll know which way to go. Put everything you have into the last one. Originally posted by Jason N I use my power targets as minimums. So whatever if my target is 230, I will be 230+ the entire time. I normally end up about 5 watts higher than target for any given interval. To marc's point; exactly, they were hard, but certainly not that hard. Do you follow the power targets on your workouts religiously...even if you have more in the tank? Agree with Marc...nothing in these files indicates that your FTP has gone up. Usually you will see an increase in power as the reps go on if your FTP is underestimated. you need to do some group rides with some racers, that will get your heartrate higher ETA: The 165 comes from 2 posts up and was stated to be in an FTP test, so 20' long. An earlier linked workout involving 2:30 intervals did not hit 160 in any of them. That's a bit low in the context of hitting 165 in the 20' test seeing how the 2:30 intervals are set up for VO2 max emphasis. I think it's still in the learning curve of establishing FTP and learning the workouts by power, but if Sean wants to talk smack before their next ride together I won't stand in the way. Thanks for the context Ben. And I wasn't talking smack lol. Just giving an assessment from my personal experiences. It took me a while to learn to suffer on the bike, and group rides is definitely what helped me the most. |
| 2016-04-13 8:33 AM in reply to: marcag |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Jason N Do you follow the power targets on your workouts religiously...even if you have more in the tank? Agree with Marc...nothing in these files indicates that your FTP has gone up. Usually you will see an increase in power as the reps go on if your FTP is underestimated. I use my power targets as minimums. So whatever if my target is 230, I will be 230+ the entire time. I normally end up about 5 watts higher than target for any given interval. To marc's point; exactly, they were hard, but certainly not that hard. Do 6x4@105% with 45sec rest and report back. You'll get a good workout and you'll know which way to go. Put everything you have into the last one. I did the workout this morning. See below. That was pretty fun actually. My HRM has been acting quite wonky lately and was WAY off during my warm up so I just took it off so it wouldn't be a distraction. So no HR data unfortunately. Unlike before, I stuck to the prescribed workout and did my best to keep the first 5 intervals right at 255, then let loose on the last one. The first five were challenging but very manageable. I gave it all I had on the last one which averaged 281. https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1124175684 (Capture.JPG) Attachments ---------------- Capture.JPG (68KB - 5 downloads) |
| 2016-04-13 10:13 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Oakville | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint I did the workout this morning. See below. That was pretty fun actually. My HRM has been acting quite wonky lately and was WAY off during my warm up so I just took it off so it wouldn't be a distraction. So no HR data unfortunately. Unlike before, I stuck to the prescribed workout and did my best to keep the first 5 intervals right at 255, then let loose on the last one. The first five were challenging but very manageable. I gave it all I had on the last one which averaged 281. https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1124175684 Did you do the entire workout in aero? I tried this workout (in aero) a few months ago and found it to be challenging but not soul sucking. I also ended up pushing the 6th interval. A few weeks later I did a 5 minute and 20 minute test which confirmed that my CP60 was low by about 15 watts. Edited by Scott71 2016-04-13 10:13 AM |
| 2016-04-13 10:24 AM in reply to: Scott71 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by Scott71 I did the workout this morning. See below. That was pretty fun actually. My HRM has been acting quite wonky lately and was WAY off during my warm up so I just took it off so it wouldn't be a distraction. So no HR data unfortunately. Unlike before, I stuck to the prescribed workout and did my best to keep the first 5 intervals right at 255, then let loose on the last one. The first five were challenging but very manageable. I gave it all I had on the last one which averaged 281. https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1124175684 Did you do the entire workout in aero? I tried this workout (in aero) a few months ago and found it to be challenging but not soul sucking. I also ended up pushing the 6th interval. A few weeks later I did a 5 minute and 20 minute test which confirmed that my CP60 was low by about 15 watts. I'm pretty religious about staying in aero during intervals. During breaks I will pop up now and again. For the most part I'm more comfortable in aero than out. I also can't push as much power out of aero for some reason. If I sit up my power immediately drops. |
| 2016-04-13 10:44 AM in reply to: 3mar |
| 812 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Nice work! |
| 2016-04-13 10:52 AM in reply to: #5174046 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Why is it you don't want to test again due to a race in May? You've improved based on that last "fun" workout. I'd suggest taking a 2-3 day recovery and do another 20' test and see what you can produce and get more accurate numbers. "Testing is training" so just sub for a threshold day. Hmm...then go fun do a 10 min brick and see how that feels. |
| 2016-04-13 11:54 AM in reply to: AdventureBear |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by AdventureBear Why is it you don't want to test again due to a race in May? You've improved based on that last "fun" workout. I'd suggest taking a 2-3 day recovery and do another 20' test and see what you can produce and get more accurate numbers. "Testing is training" so just sub for a threshold day. Hmm...then go fun do a 10 min brick and see how that feels. Is "because I don't want to" a legitimate reason? Ugh...those tests are terrible, but I see your point. |
| 2016-04-13 11:56 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by AdventureBear Why is it you don't want to test again due to a race in May? You've improved based on that last "fun" workout. I'd suggest taking a 2-3 day recovery and do another 20' test and see what you can produce and get more accurate numbers. "Testing is training" so just sub for a threshold day. Hmm...then go fun do a 10 min brick and see how that feels. Is "because I don't want to" a legitimate reason? Ugh...those tests are terrible, but I see your point. Are we playing guess the new number of the 20min test? |
| 2016-04-13 12:05 PM in reply to: marcag |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by AdventureBear Why is it you don't want to test again due to a race in May? You've improved based on that last "fun" workout. I'd suggest taking a 2-3 day recovery and do another 20' test and see what you can produce and get more accurate numbers. "Testing is training" so just sub for a threshold day. Hmm...then go fun do a 10 min brick and see how that feels. Is "because I don't want to" a legitimate reason? Ugh...those tests are terrible, but I see your point. Are we playing guess the new number of the 20min test? Not yet; I'm still in denial... |
| 2016-04-13 12:09 PM in reply to: 3mar |
| 812 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by AdventureBear Why is it you don't want to test again due to a race in May? You've improved based on that last "fun" workout. I'd suggest taking a 2-3 day recovery and do another 20' test and see what you can produce and get more accurate numbers. "Testing is training" so just sub for a threshold day. Hmm...then go fun do a 10 min brick and see how that feels. Is "because I don't want to" a legitimate reason? Ugh...those tests are terrible, but I see your point. Are we playing guess the new number of the 20min test? Not yet; I'm still in denial... Go do it outside. It'll be more enjoyable and you'll probably put out more power. I've got the perfect 20' section of road for you that has no stops right by your house. |
| 2016-04-13 12:15 PM in reply to: Jet Black |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by Jet Black Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by AdventureBear Why is it you don't want to test again due to a race in May? You've improved based on that last "fun" workout. I'd suggest taking a 2-3 day recovery and do another 20' test and see what you can produce and get more accurate numbers. "Testing is training" so just sub for a threshold day. Hmm...then go fun do a 10 min brick and see how that feels. Is "because I don't want to" a legitimate reason? Ugh...those tests are terrible, but I see your point. Are we playing guess the new number of the 20min test? Not yet; I'm still in denial... Go do it outside. It'll be more enjoyable and you'll probably put out more power. I've got the perfect 20' section of road for you that has no stops right by your house. You'll have to let me know where. That's why I have never done it outside, I couldn't find a stretch of road with no stops for 20 minutes. |
| 2016-04-13 12:26 PM in reply to: 3mar |
| 812 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Just sent you the strava segment |
| 2016-04-13 12:32 PM in reply to: Jet Black |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint |
| 2016-04-13 12:37 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: % of FTP for a Sprint Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Jet Black Just sent you the strava segment In other words: It Is On
So my projection was 257w for the 20' test. How much should we add for outdoors ? |
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